[Taxacom] Biodiversity questions: Classifications

Thu Oct 3 11:06:30 CDT 2013

I strongly disagree.
Are there ANY non-subjective alternatives to age-based categorization?

Frank

Dr. Frank-T. Krell
Curator of Entomology
Commissioner, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
Chair, ICZN ZooBank Committee
Department of Zoology
Denver Museum of Nature & Science
2001 Colorado Boulevard
Denver, CO 80205-5798 USA
Frank.Krell at dmns.org
Phone: (+1) (303) 370-8244
Fax: (+1) (303) 331-6492
http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab

The Denver Museum of Nature & Science aspires to create a community of critical thinkers who understand the lessons of the past and act as responsible stewards of the future.

From: John Grehan [mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 10:03 AM
To: Frank T. Krell
Cc: Fred Schueler; taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Biodiversity questions: Classifications

The 'so what' is that phylogenetic age is not something that can be used at present in any scientifically informative way.

John Grehan

On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 4:58 AM, <Frank.Krell at dmns.org<mailto:Frank.Krell at dmns.org>> wrote:
Yes, of course. So what? Science will always be an unfinished business. At least additional knowledge can be integrated in an age-based categorization.
Are there ANY non-subjective alternatives to age-based categories?

Yes, paraphyletic groups pose lots of problems. That's why we do not consider them in a phylogenetic system.

Frank

Dr. Frank-T. Krell
Curator of Entomology
Commissioner, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
Chair, ICZN ZooBank Committee
Department of Zoology
Denver Museum of Nature & Science
2001 Colorado Boulevard
Denver, CO 80205-5798 USA
Frank.Krell at dmns.org<mailto:Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
Phone: (+1) (303) 370-8244<tel:%28%2B1%29%20%28303%29%20370-8244>
Fax: (+1) (303) 331-6492<tel:%28%2B1%29%20%28303%29%20331-6492>
http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab

The Denver Museum of Nature & Science aspires to create a community of critical thinkers who understand the lessons of the past and act as responsible stewards of the future.

-----Original Message-----
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>] On Behalf Of John Grehan
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 9:52 AM
To: Fred Schueler
Cc: taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Biodiversity questions: Classifications
But we do not have published ages, only published miminal ages.

John grehan

On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Fred Schueler <bckcdb at istar.ca<mailto:bckcdb at istar.ca>> wrote:

> On 10/3/2013 11:20 AM, John Grehan wrote:
> > Trouble is that there is no standard objective method for assigning
> > age since all age estimates are minimal. Some have made some
> > esoteric mathematical arguments for having confidence in a
> > particular age or range, but its still an argument. Some groups may
> > have some level of "consensus" or majority opinion, but its still
> > just an opinion. As yet there is no unambiguous criterion for determining precise age.
>
> * sure - it's an hypothesis. As Bunge says "we know that all our
> constructions are defective, hence corrigible." Ages associated with a
> name both give the general user an idea of at least roughly how old a
> group is thought to be, and would challenge specialists to improve the
> resolution of their estimates.
>
> We now have enough published ages of groups that we can guess in the
> ages of descendent groups, and challenge paleontology, biogeography,
> and genetic comparisons to improve the accuracy of these guesses.
> We've been guessing about distributions on the basis of collected
> specimens for centuries, and this is the same procedure extended from
> spatial to temporal estimates.
>
> fred.
> =================================================
> > On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 3:59 AM, Fred Schueler <bckcdb at istar.ca<mailto:bckcdb at istar.ca>
> > <mailto:bckcdb at istar.ca<mailto:bckcdb at istar.ca>>> wrote:
> >
> >     On 10/3/2013 6:59 AM, Chris Thompson wrote:
> >      > There is NO scientific information to be derived from higher
> >     classifications
> >      > as there are NO scientific principles / standards underlying our
> >     current
> >      > classifications.
> >      >
> >      > Willi Hennig years ago tried to suggest a standard (age of
> >     origin) on which
> >      > to base rank within a classification. BUT he was ignored by all.
> >
> >     * others who have made the suggestion independently have also been
> >     ignored. If an age is associated with each category, then the
> > use of
> the
> >     category for a monophyletic group becomes a falsifiable
> > hypothesis,
> and
> >     rescues the notion of category from the stigma of Aristotelian
> >     arbitrariness.
> >
> >     I wonder, if this isn't to be done in an immediate convulsion, if the
> >     proposed age of the group could be appended, along with the author's
> >     name - e.g. class Mammalia (L; early Permian) - until consensus
> emerges
> >     on the ages of categories in each higher taxon, perhaps grading
> > into
> a
> >     system where age alone is the categorical marker.
> >
> >     fred.
> >     ------------------------------------------------------------
> >                Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad
> >     Bishops Mills Natural History Centre - http://pinicola.ca/bmnhc.htm
> >     Mudpuppy Night in Oxford Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm
> >     Daily Paintings - http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
> >                RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0
> >         on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
> >     (613)258-3107<tel:%28613%29258-3107> <tel:%28613%29258-3107> <bckcdb at istar.ca<http://istar.ca>
> >     <http://istar.ca>> http://pinicola.ca/
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> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>           Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad Bishops Mills Natural
> History Centre - http://pinicola.ca/bmnhc.htm Mudpuppy Night in Oxford
> Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm Daily Paintings -
> http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
>           RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0
>    on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
>     (613)258-3107<tel:%28613%29258-3107> <bckcdb at istar.ca<http://istar.ca>> http://pinicola.ca/
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