[Taxacom] Biodiversity questions: Classifications
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Thu Oct 3 11:03:22 CDT 2013
The 'so what' is that phylogenetic age is not something that can be used at
present in any scientifically informative way.
John Grehan
On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 4:58 AM, <Frank.Krell at dmns.org> wrote:
> Yes, of course. So what? Science will always be an unfinished business. At
> least additional knowledge can be integrated in an age-based categorization.
> Are there ANY non-subjective alternatives to age-based categories?
>
> Yes, paraphyletic groups pose lots of problems. That's why we do not
> consider them in a phylogenetic system.
>
> Frank
>
>
> Dr. Frank-T. Krell
> Curator of Entomology
> Commissioner, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
> Chair, ICZN ZooBank Committee
> Department of Zoology
> Denver Museum of Nature & Science
> 2001 Colorado Boulevard
> Denver, CO 80205-5798 USA
> Frank.Krell at dmns.org
> Phone: (+1) (303) 370-8244
> Fax: (+1) (303) 331-6492
> http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
> lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
>
> The Denver Museum of Nature & Science aspires to create a community of
> critical thinkers who understand the lessons of the past and act as
> responsible stewards of the future.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:
> taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of John Grehan
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 9:52 AM
> To: Fred Schueler
> Cc: taxacom
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Biodiversity questions: Classifications
>
> But we do not have published ages, only published miminal ages.
>
> John grehan
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Fred Schueler <bckcdb at istar.ca> wrote:
>
> > On 10/3/2013 11:20 AM, John Grehan wrote:
> > > Trouble is that there is no standard objective method for assigning
> > > age since all age estimates are minimal. Some have made some
> > > esoteric mathematical arguments for having confidence in a
> > > particular age or range, but its still an argument. Some groups may
> > > have some level of "consensus" or majority opinion, but its still
> > > just an opinion. As yet there is no unambiguous criterion for
> determining precise age.
> >
> > * sure - it's an hypothesis. As Bunge says "we know that all our
> > constructions are defective, hence corrigible." Ages associated with a
> > name both give the general user an idea of at least roughly how old a
> > group is thought to be, and would challenge specialists to improve the
> > resolution of their estimates.
> >
> > We now have enough published ages of groups that we can guess in the
> > ages of descendent groups, and challenge paleontology, biogeography,
> > and genetic comparisons to improve the accuracy of these guesses.
> > We've been guessing about distributions on the basis of collected
> > specimens for centuries, and this is the same procedure extended from
> > spatial to temporal estimates.
> >
> > fred.
> > =================================================
> > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 3:59 AM, Fred Schueler <bckcdb at istar.ca
> > > <mailto:bckcdb at istar.ca>> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 10/3/2013 6:59 AM, Chris Thompson wrote:
> > > > There is NO scientific information to be derived from higher
> > > classifications
> > > > as there are NO scientific principles / standards underlying our
> > > current
> > > > classifications.
> > > >
> > > > Willi Hennig years ago tried to suggest a standard (age of
> > > origin) on which
> > > > to base rank within a classification. BUT he was ignored by all.
> > >
> > > * others who have made the suggestion independently have also been
> > > ignored. If an age is associated with each category, then the
> > > use of
> > the
> > > category for a monophyletic group becomes a falsifiable
> > > hypothesis,
> > and
> > > rescues the notion of category from the stigma of Aristotelian
> > > arbitrariness.
> > >
> > > I wonder, if this isn't to be done in an immediate convulsion, if
> the
> > > proposed age of the group could be appended, along with the
> author's
> > > name - e.g. class Mammalia (L; early Permian) - until consensus
> > emerges
> > > on the ages of categories in each higher taxon, perhaps grading
> > > into
> > a
> > > system where age alone is the categorical marker.
> > >
> > > fred.
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad
> > > Bishops Mills Natural History Centre -
> http://pinicola.ca/bmnhc.htm
> > > Mudpuppy Night in Oxford Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm
> > > Daily Paintings - http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
> > > RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0
> > > on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
> > > (613)258-3107 <tel:%28613%29258-3107> <bckcdb at istar.ca
> > > <http://istar.ca>> http://pinicola.ca/
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad Bishops Mills Natural
> > History Centre - http://pinicola.ca/bmnhc.htm Mudpuppy Night in Oxford
> > Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm Daily Paintings -
> > http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
> > RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0
> > on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
> > (613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
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