[Taxacom] teleology example

Sun Mar 10 15:42:13 CDT 2013

And what is your purpose in banning "purpose," Jason? 

There are, you know, immortal purposes that will cross state lines.

R.

ï»¿ 

____________________________
Richard H. Zander
Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA  
Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm
UPS and FedExpr -  MBG, 4344 Shaw Blvd, St. Louis 63110 USA

-----Original Message-----
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of JF Mate
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2013 3:54 AM
To: Taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] teleology example

Lets kill this thread by banning the word "purpose" from Taxacom. In
fact lets enable a filter that will automatically reject emails
containing said word.

And to the other Kiwis in Taxacom. Do you guys also talk like HAL9000?

Best

Jason

On 9 March 2013 09:57, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
> Knut Rognes, best known for his work on Diptera, just sent me an
> unpublished manuscript on teleology, selection etc. This was written in
> 1988 but is still one of the clearest accounts I've seen and well-worth a
> read. It's at:
> http://home.online.no/~k-rognes/Teleologi1.pdf
> Other Scandinavians who have contributed outstanding, critical accounts of
> neodarwinism include Soren Lovtrup, the vertebrate zoologist.
>
> Michael Heads
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Fred Schueler <bckcdb at istar.ca> wrote:
>
>> Quoting John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>:
>>
>> >  Many evolutionists still use
>> > explicitly teleological explanations while at the same time denying that
>> > their words say what that say. Is this not bizarre?
>>
>> * no, it's not bizarre. Descent with modification by natural selection
>> is the only known mechanism for generating purpose (the ability to do
>> things that tend to promote survival), so it's not much of a stretch
>> to refer to the selective function of a structure as the purpose for
>> its perpetuation. There's a bit more of a stretch to refer to a
>> purpose for an origin, which involves developmental and evolutionary
>> pathways, rather than individual development, but to the extent that
>> there is such a thing as purpose, evolutionary origin is some kind of
>> a summation of individual 'purposes.'
>>
>> fred (though admittedly, in the present case the use of 'purpose' did
>> grate).
>> =========================================================
>>
>> > On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Richard Zander
>> > <Richard.Zander at mobot.org>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Clearly most of us think that the author did not write "purpose" on
>> >> purpose.
>> >>
>> >> But then, do even humans really have purpose? Or are we just neurons
>> >> firing in concert following some higher pattern in the universe, and we
>> >> pretend we have free-will and . . . purpose? Perhaps we are all just
>> >> organic machines, and what we think is purpose is just reflex
>> >> machination? Or are we living in a big video game following the higher
>> >> purpose of a multidiminsional Xbox?
>> >>
>> >> This thread is actually quite bizarre. Whether you think about it . . .
>> >> or not.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ____________________________
>> >> Richard H. Zander
>> >> Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA
>> >> Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and
>> >> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
>> >> Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site:
>> >> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm
>> >> UPS and FedExpr -  MBG, 4344 Shaw Blvd, St. Louis 63110 USA
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> >> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Curtis Clark
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 9:43 PM
>> >> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] teleology example
>> >>
>> >> On 2013-03-06 6:12 PM, John Grehan wrote:
>> >> > Here's a nice explicit example: "it's hard to see how these hair-like
>> >> > processes would evolve if they didn't serve a purpose."
>> >>
>> >> "Purpose" is often used as an unfortunate substitute for "function" by
>> >> biologists. Sloppy writing doesn't always mean sloppy thinking.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Curtis Clark        http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark
>> >> Biological Sciences                   +1 909 869 4140
>> >> Cal Poly Pomona, Pomona CA 91768
>> >>
>> >>
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>
>
>
> --
> Wellington, New Zealand.
>
> My new book: *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *
> University of California Press, Berkeley.
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Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.