[Taxacom] Asterales

Wed Mar 14 08:49:08 CDT 2012

My apologies, I get your point now.  My understanding was that you were
advocating that only Latin pron. should be used, but I see now that you are
combating the idea that everyone should pronounce names in English accent.

It would certainly be a sad day.  I quite like to listen how organisms
sound in different accents...

Dan

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Torbjörn Tyler <
torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se> wrote:

> True, and that's my point as well.
>
> However, most people trying to speak a foreign language have the ambition
> to pronounce it as correctly as possible, but what made me react to this
> thread in the first place was that it appeared as if some colleagues did
> not have such an ambition when it comes to Botanical/Zoological Latin and
> rather advocated that everyone should try to pronounce organismal names
> according to the rules of their own language (or at least according to the
> rules of the English language).
>
> / Torbjörn
>
>
> 14 mar 2012 kl. 14.17 skrev Dan Lahr:
>
> "I have actually already once experienced a situation where my students
> asked an invited American guest lecturer to write all scientific names used
> in the lecture on the whiteboard since they could not translitterate them
> from his pronounciation."
>
> Hence the issue was resolved quickly, with a little common sense.  This
> (mis)pronounciation issue seems to me a very marginal one, that has not
> effectively impeded communication so far.  A little tolerance and
> understanding from both sides tends to quickly resolve such issues.  We
> can´t expect everyone to have perfect pronunciation of English or French
> for international communication, and similarly we can´t expect people
> pronounce names just the right way.
>
> Additionally, overregulation is a problem that tends to drive people away
> from abiding by the rules which are actually important.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Dan
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Torbjörn Tyler <
> torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se> wrote:
>
>> If everybody pronounces scientific names according to the rules of their
>> own mother language we will certainly face huge problems in our spoken
>> communication, so I think we should care! I have actually already once
>> experienced a situation where my students asked an invited American guest
>> lecturer to write all scientific names used in the lecture on the
>> whiteboard since they could not translitterate them from his pronounciation.
>>
>> As stated in a previous mail, though admittedly with some irony then, I
>> cannot see the point in using scientific names (as opposed to vernacular
>> ones) if we are not trying to pronounce them in a way that facilitates
>> understanding by people with other vernacular mother languages.  Most
>> people find vernacular (i.e. English or Swedish) organismal names easier to
>> learn and comprehend than their scientific/Latin counterparts, so if the
>> latter no longer facilitates communication across language boundaries I
>> will in most cases prefer the former.
>>
>> Thus, even if it may be true that Botanical Latin should be considered as
>> a living language separate from classical Latin, I think we should strive
>> to agree on at least some basic rules for its pronounciation. Besides, it
>> is hardly true that "nobody knows how [classical] Latin was spoken"; I
>> guess no other language has been subjected to so intensive research by the
>> linguists and I am sure they have reached some conclusions! In addition,
>> the Latin spoken during the Middle ages in Europe and from which Botanical
>> Latin might be considered to be derived, is definitely not unknown, neither
>> its grammar nor its pronunciation (even if it indeed differed somewhat
>> between centuries and geographic areas).
>>
>> Of course, we will inevitably have to accept some differences in
>> pronunciation. That will not pose any serious problems, but only as long as
>> we have the ambition and willingness to adopt a pronunciation that
>> facilitates our communication, and from the previous discussion on this
>> thread I get the impression that some colleagues do not have such an
>> ambition.
>>
>> / Torbjörn
>>
>>
>>
>> 14 mar 2012 kl. 08.50 skrev Dr Brian Taylor:
>>
>> > Who cares and why?  I too learnt Latin at school but nobody knows how
>> Latin
>> > was spoken.  Surely it is only correct spelling that matters?  This
>> seems
>> > typical of Code pedantry.  I note nobody replied when I asked what is a
>> > species-group other than a species??
>> >
>> > Brian Taylor
>> >
>> > On 14/03/2012 04:49, "Curtis Clark" <lists at curtisclark.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'd like to add two things. First,
>> >>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin,
>> >> which
>> >> explains the way Latin is traditionally pronounced in English.
>> >>
>> >> Second, Prof. Lehtinen sent a response off-list which I suspect he
>> meant
>> >> to go to the list. I asked him about it, and have not heard a response,
>> >> so I won't forward it, but he did bring up an interesting
>> >> interpretation: That the requirements of both the ICZN and ICN that
>> >> scientific names be in Latin form also refers to their pronunciation.
>> >> Unless something happened at Melbourne that I don't know about, I don't
>> >> think the ICN mentions pronunciation. If in fact the ICZN does, I
>> >> apologize, and will endeavor to use Latin pronunciation with my
>> >> zoologist colleagues (who will be greatly befuddled).
>> >>
>> >> What I still don't understand is what constitutes "correct" Latin
>> >> pronunciation. I learned a pronunciation in school in the 1960s that
>> >> differs from the current scholarly views
>> >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation),
>> >> especially in such thing as nasalization of vowels and the value of
>> some
>> >> of the consonants. It is of course a reconstruction (all the audio
>> tapes
>> >> were burned in Nero's Rome :-), but its pronunciation must have been
>> >> quite different from that of either Linnaeus or the Church of Rome.
>> >> Certainly, the differences are no greater than those of English among
>> >> Received Pronunciation, General American English, Cockney, and 'Strine,
>> >> but those are often mutually unintelligible to unfamiliar listeners.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Torbjörn Tyler, Ph.D,
>> >
>> > – Curator at herbarium LD.
>> > – Editor in Chief of Nordic Journal of Botany.
>> > – Deputy secretary of Lund Botanical Society, with special
>> > responsibility for Projekt Skånes Mossor.
>> > – Responsible for the project The Hieracia of Sweden.
>> >
>> >
>> > Botanical Museum
>> > Ö. Vallgatan 18
>> > SE-223 61 Lund
>> >
>> > tel. +(0)46-222 89 65
>> >
>> >
>> > e-mail: torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se<mailto:torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se>
>> >
>> > Private address: Enningervägen 12, SE-243 31 Höör (=Hoeoer), tel.
>> > +(0)413-23123.
>> > ___________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Taxacom Mailing List
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>>
>> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of
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>>
>> (1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>
>> (2) a Google search specified as:  site:
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel J. G. Lahr, PhD
> Post-Doctoral Research Associate, Dept. of Zoology
> University of Sao Paulo, Brazil
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Torbjörn Tyler, Ph.D,
>
>
> – Curator at herbarium LD.
>
> – Editor in Chief of Nordic Journal of Botany.
>
> – Deputy secretary of Lund Botanical Society, with special
>
> responsibility for Projekt Skånes Mossor.
>
> – Responsible for the project The Hieracia of Sweden.
>
>
>
> Botanical Museum
>
> Ö. Vallgatan 18
>
> SE-223 61 Lund
>
>
> tel. +(0)46-222 89 65 <skype:+462228965?call>
>
>
>
> e-mail: torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se<mailto:torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se<torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se>
> >
>
>
> Private address: Enningervägen 12, SE-243 31 Höör (=Hoeoer), tel.
>
> +(0)413-23123 <skype:+41323123?call>.
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Daniel J. G. Lahr, PhD
Post-Doctoral Research Associate, Dept. of Zoology
University of Sao Paulo, Brazil