[Taxacom] Asterales

Wed Mar 14 08:30:08 CDT 2012

True, and that's my point as well. 

However, most people trying to speak a foreign language have the ambition to pronounce it as correctly as possible, but what made me react to this thread in the first place was that it appeared as if some colleagues did not have such an ambition when it comes to Botanical/Zoological Latin and rather advocated that everyone should try to pronounce organismal names according to the rules of their own language (or at least according to the rules of the English language).

/ Torbjörn

14 mar 2012 kl. 14.17 skrev Dan Lahr:

> "I have actually already once experienced a situation where my students asked an invited American guest lecturer to write all scientific names used in the lecture on the whiteboard since they could not translitterate them from his pronounciation."
> 
> Hence the issue was resolved quickly, with a little common sense.  This (mis)pronounciation issue seems to me a very marginal one, that has not effectively impeded communication so far.  A little tolerance and understanding from both sides tends to quickly resolve such issues.  We can´t expect everyone to have perfect pronunciation of English or French for international communication, and similarly we can´t expect people pronounce names just the right way.
> 
> Additionally, overregulation is a problem that tends to drive people away from abiding by the rules which are actually important.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Torbjörn Tyler <torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se> wrote:
> If everybody pronounces scientific names according to the rules of their own mother language we will certainly face huge problems in our spoken communication, so I think we should care! I have actually already once experienced a situation where my students asked an invited American guest lecturer to write all scientific names used in the lecture on the whiteboard since they could not translitterate them from his pronounciation.
> 
> As stated in a previous mail, though admittedly with some irony then, I cannot see the point in using scientific names (as opposed to vernacular ones) if we are not trying to pronounce them in a way that facilitates understanding by people with other vernacular mother languages.  Most people find vernacular (i.e. English or Swedish) organismal names easier to learn and comprehend than their scientific/Latin counterparts, so if the latter no longer facilitates communication across language boundaries I will in most cases prefer the former.
> 
> Thus, even if it may be true that Botanical Latin should be considered as a living language separate from classical Latin, I think we should strive to agree on at least some basic rules for its pronounciation. Besides, it is hardly true that "nobody knows how [classical] Latin was spoken"; I guess no other language has been subjected to so intensive research by the linguists and I am sure they have reached some conclusions! In addition, the Latin spoken during the Middle ages in Europe and from which Botanical Latin might be considered to be derived, is definitely not unknown, neither its grammar nor its pronunciation (even if it indeed differed somewhat between centuries and geographic areas).
> 
> Of course, we will inevitably have to accept some differences in pronunciation. That will not pose any serious problems, but only as long as we have the ambition and willingness to adopt a pronunciation that facilitates our communication, and from the previous discussion on this thread I get the impression that some colleagues do not have such an ambition.
> 
> / Torbjörn
> 
> 
> 
> 14 mar 2012 kl. 08.50 skrev Dr Brian Taylor:
> 
> > Who cares and why?  I too learnt Latin at school but nobody knows how Latin
> > was spoken.  Surely it is only correct spelling that matters?  This seems
> > typical of Code pedantry.  I note nobody replied when I asked what is a
> > species-group other than a species??
> >
> > Brian Taylor
> >
> > On 14/03/2012 04:49, "Curtis Clark" <lists at curtisclark.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I'd like to add two things. First,
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin,
> >> which
> >> explains the way Latin is traditionally pronounced in English.
> >>
> >> Second, Prof. Lehtinen sent a response off-list which I suspect he meant
> >> to go to the list. I asked him about it, and have not heard a response,
> >> so I won't forward it, but he did bring up an interesting
> >> interpretation: That the requirements of both the ICZN and ICN that
> >> scientific names be in Latin form also refers to their pronunciation.
> >> Unless something happened at Melbourne that I don't know about, I don't
> >> think the ICN mentions pronunciation. If in fact the ICZN does, I
> >> apologize, and will endeavor to use Latin pronunciation with my
> >> zoologist colleagues (who will be greatly befuddled).
> >>
> >> What I still don't understand is what constitutes "correct" Latin
> >> pronunciation. I learned a pronunciation in school in the 1960s that
> >> differs from the current scholarly views
> >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation),
> >> especially in such thing as nasalization of vowels and the value of some
> >> of the consonants. It is of course a reconstruction (all the audio tapes
> >> were burned in Nero's Rome :-), but its pronunciation must have been
> >> quite different from that of either Linnaeus or the Church of Rome.
> >> Certainly, the differences are no greater than those of English among
> >> Received Pronunciation, General American English, Cockney, and 'Strine,
> >> but those are often mutually unintelligible to unfamiliar listeners.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >
> > The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of these methods:
> >
> > (1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > (2) a Google search specified as:  site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
> 
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Torbjörn Tyler, Ph.D,
> >
> > – Curator at herbarium LD.
> > – Editor in Chief of Nordic Journal of Botany.
> > – Deputy secretary of Lund Botanical Society, with special
> > responsibility for Projekt Skånes Mossor.
> > – Responsible for the project The Hieracia of Sweden.
> >
> >
> > Botanical Museum
> > Ö. Vallgatan 18
> > SE-223 61 Lund
> >
> > tel. +(0)46-222 89 65
> >
> >
> > e-mail: torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se<mailto:torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se>
> >
> > Private address: Enningervägen 12, SE-243 31 Höör (=Hoeoer), tel.
> > +(0)413-23123.
> > ___________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> 
> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of these methods:
> 
> (1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org
> 
> (2) a Google search specified as:  site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Daniel J. G. Lahr, PhD
> Post-Doctoral Research Associate, Dept. of Zoology
> University of Sao Paulo, Brazil

> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Torbjörn Tyler, Ph.D,
> 
> – Curator at herbarium LD.
> – Editor in Chief of Nordic Journal of Botany.
> – Deputy secretary of Lund Botanical Society, with special
> responsibility for Projekt Skånes Mossor.
> – Responsible for the project The Hieracia of Sweden.
> 
> 
> Botanical Museum
> Ö. Vallgatan 18
> SE-223 61 Lund
> 
> tel. +(0)46-222 89 65
> 
> 
> e-mail: torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se<mailto:torbjorn.tyler at botmus.lu.se>
> 
> Private address: Enningervägen 12, SE-243 31 Höör (=Hoeoer), tel.
> +(0)413-23123.
> ___________________________________________________________________