[Taxacom] Occurrence data...

[Stephen Thorpe]

>So the public taxpayer must fund something in the knowledge that someday, 
>someone will make use of work they funded - trust me!

yes, they must, but the "somethings" are pieces of the whole pie, and the 
pieces are themselves ready-to-eat ...

compare with occurrence data: we database the contents of your museum's 
collection, but much of it will be pre-revision misidentifications plus some 
mislabellings, plus some interpretation and data entry errors, ...

I don't buy the higher level stuff is just as tasty argument ... beetles 
are found everywhere on land except Antarctica ... yeah, we know that ...

Stephen




________________________________
From: "Walker, Ken" <kwalker at museum.vic.gov.au>
To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Cc: Bob Mesibov <mesibov at southcom.com.au>; TAXACOM <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Sent: Sat, 19 February, 2011 3:29:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Occurrence data...



On 19/02/2011, at 12:57 PM, "Stephen Thorpe" 
<stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz<mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>> wrote:

>>taxonomic data created by taxonomists in advance of users has robust meaning

>So why is there a "taxonomic crisis/impediment".

that is a completely different issue! The "taxonomic crisis/impediment" is about 
there not being enough taxonomists doing taxonomy these days. I am saying that 
*if* a taxonomist revises a group in advance of anybody wanting data on that 
group, then they have created robust data to be used down the track ...


So the public taxpayer must fund something in the knowledge that someday, 
someone will make use of work they funded - trust me!

To quote Bob: I can't think of any other major human enterprise that tolerates 
such vagueness in its aims.


>>occurrence data compiled in advance of taxonomic revision has no robust meaning 
>>...

>It does at higher ranks and less so at lower ranks
indeed, ... there is a dodgy freelance entomologist on this side of the ditch 
who identifies stuff to "higher levels", and then tells the client (who wants to 
know if they have anything significant in their reserve) "incredibly meaningful" 
stuff like "this order is common throughout New Zealand"! ... I rest my case ...


I take students out and trap in grasslands, open woodland and closed canopy 
forest and then sort the catch to ordinal rank. The students are always amazed 
that there is a significant biodiversity difference between habitats.

________________________________
From: "Walker, Ken" 
<kwalker at museum.vic.gov.au<mailto:kwalker at museum.vic.gov.au>>
To: Stephen Thorpe 
<stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz<mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>>
Cc: Bob Mesibov <mesibov at southcom.com.au<mailto:mesibov at southcom.com.au>>; 
TAXACOM <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
Sent: Sat, 19 February, 2011 2:43:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Occurrence data...




On 19/02/2011, at 12:20 PM, "Stephen Thorpe" 
<<mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz<mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz><mailto:<mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz<mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>>>
 wrote:

taxonomic data created by taxonomists in advance of users has robust meaning

>So why is there a "taxonomic crisis/impediment".

occurrence data compiled in advance of taxonomic revision has no robust meaning 
...

>It does at higher ranks and less so at lower ranks

________________________________
From: "Walker, Ken" 
<<mailto:kwalker at museum.vic.gov.au>kwalker at museum.vic.gov.au<mailto:kwalker at museum.vic.gov.au><mailto:<mailto:kwalker at museum.vic.gov.au>kwalker at museum.vic.gov.au<mailto:kwalker at museum.vic.gov.au>>>

To: Bob Mesibov 
<<mailto:mesibov at southcom.com.au>mesibov at southcom.com.au<mailto:mesibov at southcom.com.au><mailto:<mailto:mesibov at southcom.com.au>mesibov at southcom.com.au<mailto:mesibov at southcom.com.au>>>

Cc: TAXACOM 
<<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu><mailto:<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>>

Sent: Sat, 19 February, 2011 2:06:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Occurrence data...



> the important thing is to have the data ready when someone, somewhere, wants it 
>for some purpose. I can't think of any other major human enterprise that 
>tolerates such vagueness in its aims.

How about taxonomy? When someone asks: "What is it?" Do we then begin to revise 
and describe to answer the question in perhaps 5 years? Taxonomy answers 
questions that are yet to be asked and like you Bob, many people have trouble 
placing a value on such a commodity.

How about museum and herbaria collections?  I cannot define the future use of 
every specimen in our collections and yet I go out and collect more specimens 
using taxpayer funds. How do I justify use of these funds unless society 
tolerates such vagueness.

Can you prepare a definitive list of users of your taxonomical outputs? How is 
your taxonomic output going to be used?

If not, then how do you "tolerates such vagueness in <your> aims."

Ken

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