[Taxacom] hominid challenge

John Grehan jgrehan at sciencebuff.org
Wed Sep 23 13:09:39 CDT 2009 

I can well understand that some on this list are tired of the subject, and I am certainly guilty of being single minded about this particular topic. But of course the delete button is there as it is for any topic on this list.

However, it is apparent to me that there is also a great deal of outrage and anger over the very idea that the molecular evidence can be called into question by morphology, and that molecular evidence is deficient with regard to integrating the fossil record within a single coherent systematic and phylogenetic framework. 

I have found the widespread emotive response quite fascinating and it continues to intrigue me as much as the problem at hand which is how to phylogenetically integrate the fossil record for human origins if the morphology is no good as an independent predictor of phylogeny - which is pretty much what the molecular supporters are saying for the hominoid evidence.

John Grehan (the bad ape)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Barry Roth
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:31 PM
> To: Taxacom
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> 
> Speaking as one who has "no dog in the fight" over human/other Great Ape
> relationships, I found John's question serious and interesting --
> certainly not something to call up the vituperative responses it has
> received.  I would like to know the answer, and a response in the form of
> a pointer to some publication that addresses the issue would be quite
> satisfactory.
> 
> Not knowing the answer will not keep me up at night, but it's a reasonable
> query, and certainly within the scope of this list.
> 
> Barry Roth
> (maybe not a Great Ape, but a Good Ape)
> 
> --- On Tue, 9/22/09, John Grehan <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Sarcasm aside, I think I am posing a serious question. If the theory of
> evolution posits continuity between the past and the present then one may
> expect that to be demonstrated by evidence. The living human-orangutan
> evidence also provides continuity with the fossil evidence. The chimpanzee
> theory of relationship is so certain that it is presented to the public
> and to students as a fact. So where is the evidence for continuity with
> the fossil record?
> 
> If there is none then chimpanzee theorists can admit as much and we can go
> on from there (although I expect creationists would have a field day with
> any such admission).
> 
> John Grehan
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robin Leech [mailto:releech at telus.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:15 AM
> > To: John Grehan; Taxacom
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> >
> > And if no one does come forward, then you can stand up
> > on your hind legs, having won, and thump on your winning
> > chest? Ohhhh boy!
> >
> > Historically, and almost always, very simple-seeming questions
> > invariably have very complicated answers.
> >
> > [Those are my 3 contributions for the day.  Thank you.]
> >
> > Robin
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Grehan" <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>
> > To: "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> >
> >
> > Whether anyone wants to front up with the evidence or not is up to them.
> > This is a very simple question and there are people on this list who are
> > convinced that the chimpanzee theory of relationship is correct so it
> > should
> > be no hardship to cite the set of uniquely shared characters for humans,
> > fossil hominids, and chimpanzees. But I'm betting that no one will be
> able
> > to.
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Robin Leech [mailto:releech at telus.net]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:15 AM
> > > To: John Grehan; Taxacom
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> > >
> > > I don't think so, John.  This is not a symposium or conference,
> > > and most people will not rise to give formal, integrated evidence
> > > in the Taxacom Forum.
> > > You will get answers only from those you have been debating
> > > with already on Taxacom.
> > > Robin
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "John Grehan" <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>
> > > To: "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:36 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> > >
> > >
> > > Well...it will prove whether or not supporters of the chimpanzee
> theory
> > > can
> > > integrate the systematic evidence for placing fossil hominids closer
> to
> > > chimpanzees (along with humans) than anything else. Since the
> chimpanzee
> > > theory supporters more or less view it as an established fact I don't
> > > think
> > > I am asking too much for a coherent theory of relationship that
> includes
> > > the
> > > fossil hominids.
> > >
> > > John Grehan
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> > > > bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Robin Leech
> > > > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:05 PM
> > > > To: Jason Mate; Taxacom
> > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> > > >
> > > > And all this will prove just exactly what?
> > > > Robin
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Jason Mate" <jfmate at hotmail.com>
> > > > To: "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 2:45 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not rock solid, just waiting (still) for the articles. Send them,
> then
> > > we
> > > > can email till our quota is filled.
> > > > I am all for 3 emails per day, although I´ll stick with 2 emails.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > Jason
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:48:00 -0400
> > > > > From: jgrehan at sciencebuff.org
> > > > > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > > Subject: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a challenge to all list members who are rock solid on the
> > > > > chimpanzee theory of human origin, especially any who teach that
> > > > > doctrine to students.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What evidence do supporters of the chimpanzee theory present for
> the
> > > > > inclusion of early fossil hominids (australopiths) within a
> > > > > human-chimpanzee clade? This is not a question about characters
> > > > > supporting the monophyly of humans and fossil hominids, but
> > characters
> > > > > that support a human-fossil hominid-chimpanzee clade. How many
> > > > > characters and what are they?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is also not a question about molecular evidence since
> molecular
> > > > > evidence cannot apply to most of the hominid fossil evidence. I
> look
> > > > > forward to seeing that definitive evidence on this list,
> especially
> > > from
> > > > > those who are so cavalier about dismissing the orangutan evidence.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > John Grehan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. John R. Grehan
> > > > >
> > > > > Director of Science
> > > > >
> > > > > Buffalo Museum of Science1020 Humboldt Parkway
> > > > >
> > > > > Buffalo, NY 14211-1193
> > > > >
> > > > > email: jgrehan at sciencebuff.org
> > > > >
> > > > > Phone: (716) 896-5200 ext 372
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Panbiogeography
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.sciencebuff.org/research/current-research-
> > activities/john-
> > > gre
> > > > > han/evolutionary-biography
> > > > >
> > <http://www.sciencebuff.org/biogeography_and_evolutionary_biology.php>
> > > > >
> > > > > Ghost moth research
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.sciencebuff.org/research/current-research-
> > activities/john-
> > > gre
> > > > > han/ghost-moths
> > > > >
> > >
> <http://www.sciencebuff.org/systematics_and_evolution_of_hepialdiae.php>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Human evolution and the great apes
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.sciencebuff.org/research/current-research-
> > activities/john-
> > > gre
> > > > > han/human-origins
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> 
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