[Taxacom] hominid challenge

Barry Roth barry_roth at yahoo.com
Wed Sep 23 12:30:55 CDT 2009 

Speaking as one who has "no dog in the fight" over human/other Great Ape relationships, I found John's question serious and interesting -- certainly not something to call up the vituperative responses it has received.  I would like to know the answer, and a response in the form of a pointer to some publication that addresses the issue would be quite satisfactory.
 
Not knowing the answer will not keep me up at night, but it's a reasonable query, and certainly within the scope of this list.
 
Barry Roth
(maybe not a Great Ape, but a Good Ape)

--- On Tue, 9/22/09, John Grehan <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org> wrote:


Sarcasm aside, I think I am posing a serious question. If the theory of evolution posits continuity between the past and the present then one may expect that to be demonstrated by evidence. The living human-orangutan evidence also provides continuity with the fossil evidence. The chimpanzee theory of relationship is so certain that it is presented to the public and to students as a fact. So where is the evidence for continuity with the fossil record?

If there is none then chimpanzee theorists can admit as much and we can go on from there (although I expect creationists would have a field day with any such admission).

John Grehan


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin Leech [mailto:releech at telus.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:15 AM
> To: John Grehan; Taxacom
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> 
> And if no one does come forward, then you can stand up
> on your hind legs, having won, and thump on your winning
> chest? Ohhhh boy!
> 
> Historically, and almost always, very simple-seeming questions
> invariably have very complicated answers.
> 
> [Those are my 3 contributions for the day.  Thank you.]
> 
> Robin
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Grehan" <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>
> To: "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> 
> 
> Whether anyone wants to front up with the evidence or not is up to them.
> This is a very simple question and there are people on this list who are
> convinced that the chimpanzee theory of relationship is correct so it
> should
> be no hardship to cite the set of uniquely shared characters for humans,
> fossil hominids, and chimpanzees. But I'm betting that no one will be able
> to.
> 
> John Grehan
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robin Leech [mailto:releech at telus.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:15 AM
> > To: John Grehan; Taxacom
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> >
> > I don't think so, John.  This is not a symposium or conference,
> > and most people will not rise to give formal, integrated evidence
> > in the Taxacom Forum.
> > You will get answers only from those you have been debating
> > with already on Taxacom.
> > Robin
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Grehan" <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>
> > To: "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> >
> >
> > Well...it will prove whether or not supporters of the chimpanzee theory
> > can
> > integrate the systematic evidence for placing fossil hominids closer to
> > chimpanzees (along with humans) than anything else. Since the chimpanzee
> > theory supporters more or less view it as an established fact I don't
> > think
> > I am asking too much for a coherent theory of relationship that includes
> > the
> > fossil hominids.
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> > > bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Robin Leech
> > > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:05 PM
> > > To: Jason Mate; Taxacom
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> > >
> > > And all this will prove just exactly what?
> > > Robin
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jason Mate" <jfmate at hotmail.com>
> > > To: "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 2:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Not rock solid, just waiting (still) for the articles. Send them, then
> > we
> > > can email till our quota is filled.
> > > I am all for 3 emails per day, although I´ll stick with 2 emails.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Jason
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:48:00 -0400
> > > > From: jgrehan at sciencebuff.org
> > > > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > Subject: [Taxacom] hominid challenge
> > > >
> > > > Here's a challenge to all list members who are rock solid on the
> > > > chimpanzee theory of human origin, especially any who teach that
> > > > doctrine to students.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What evidence do supporters of the chimpanzee theory present for the
> > > > inclusion of early fossil hominids (australopiths) within a
> > > > human-chimpanzee clade? This is not a question about characters
> > > > supporting the monophyly of humans and fossil hominids, but
> characters
> > > > that support a human-fossil hominid-chimpanzee clade. How many
> > > > characters and what are they?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is also not a question about molecular evidence since molecular
> > > > evidence cannot apply to most of the hominid fossil evidence. I look
> > > > forward to seeing that definitive evidence on this list, especially
> > from
> > > > those who are so cavalier about dismissing the orangutan evidence.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John Grehan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dr. John R. Grehan
> > > >
> > > > Director of Science
> > > >
> > > > Buffalo Museum of Science1020 Humboldt Parkway
> > > >
> > > > Buffalo, NY 14211-1193
> > > >
> > > > email: jgrehan at sciencebuff.org
> > > >
> > > > Phone: (716) 896-5200 ext 372
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Panbiogeography
> > > >
> > > > http://www.sciencebuff.org/research/current-research-
> activities/john-
> > gre
> > > > han/evolutionary-biography
> > > >
> <http://www.sciencebuff.org/biogeography_and_evolutionary_biology.php>
> > > >
> > > > Ghost moth research
> > > >
> > > > http://www.sciencebuff.org/research/current-research-
> activities/john-
> > gre
> > > > han/ghost-moths
> > > >
> > <http://www.sciencebuff.org/systematics_and_evolution_of_hepialdiae.php>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Human evolution and the great apes
> > > >
> > > > http://www.sciencebuff.org/research/current-research-
> activities/john-
> > gre
> > > > han/human-origins
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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