[Taxacom] More evidence turtles are diapsids

Wed Oct 21 12:39:31 CDT 2009

I recently read a philosophical paper proposing to promote again the notion of scientific progress as "increasing knowledge" 
the author also stated that only time tells what is consolidated scientific knowledge 
sounded very reasonable to me 
(contra "wild paradigm shifting", the Kuhnian myth; or "refutation is everything", the naive Popperianism) 

sorry I can't remember the author, from the French Guianian mangrove around here... 

otherwise, my agreement with Kirk is just about what he stated in his last post: there is a confusing misuse of evidence and testing in the current phylogenetic literature 

this is not to say that congruence has no importance for "guessing and balancing an explanation", 
so I understand the reaction of Ken when reading "meaningless congruence" 
I know of nobody (euurrr... nearly nobody) prefering the less congruent explanations, e.g. the cladograms implying the more homoplasy in the standard parsimony approach...  

I think Kirk is talking of some "meaningless use of the notion of congruence" in some tentatively philosophical literature in evolutionay biology... 

best,
Pierre

Richard Zander <Richard.Zander at mobot.org> a écrit :

> Well, it looks like systematics has problems defining "progress." Do you
> philosophers of science feel that much of the clustering of apprehended
> "groups of organisms out there" by various methods that support
> classification are, in various ways, useless or misdirections or simply
> diverting?
>
> *****************************
> Richard H. Zander
> Voice: 314-577-0276
> Missouri Botanical Garden
> PO Box 299
> St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA
> richard.zander at mobot.org
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> and http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
> Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site:
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> *****************************
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of J. Kirk
> Fitzhugh
> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:12 PM
> To: Ian Stocks
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] More evidence turtles are diapsids
>
> Whewell's consilience can't do an end run around evidential relevance
> (sensu Carnap) in non-deductive inference, and I've never seen any
> commentary on his concept that would rationally allow such. To say some
> explanatory hypothesis is most consilient, i.e. has greatest explanatory
>
> coverage, then this would entail one has not partitioned relevant
> evidence used to infer hypotheses. To do otherwise would mean having
> hypotheses that are not maximally explanatory, respectively. But just as
>
> critical, the disparate hypotheses are only relevant to the subsets of
> evidence in need of explanation, and as a consequence, drawing any
> comparisons between the hypotheses would be meaningless since they don't
>
> address the same sets of questions.
>
> Kirk
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> J. Kirk Fitzhugh, Ph.D.
> Curator of Polychaetes
> Invertebrate Zoology Section
> Research & Collections Branch
> Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
> 900 Exposition Blvd
> Los Angeles CA 90007
> Phone: 213-763-3233
> FAX: 213-746-2999
> e-mail: kfitzhug at nhm.org
> http://www.nhm.org/site/research-collections/polychaetous-annelids
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
> Ian Stocks wrote:
>> I've been following this conversation with interest- I agree that two
>> different data sets are cannot be used as reciprocal tests of the
>> veracity of the hypotheses being generated by the data, but I have to
>> wonder about the role of Whewell's notion of consilience. Is it
> possible
>> that if a data set is portioned (e.g. morphology and mnolecules), and
>> they generate the same hypothesis (e.g., tree topology), then we gain
>> confidence in the hypothesis through consilience. Not a test per se,
>> more in line of the verificationist frame, but perhaps still better
> than
>> nothing?
>> Ian
>>
>>
>> Ian Stocks, PhD
>> Insect Diagnostician and Collections Manager, Clemson University
>> Arthropod Collection
>> 312 Long Hall
>> Department of Entomology, Soils, and Plant Sciences
>> Clemson University
>> Clemson, SC. USA
>> 29634-0315
>>
>> 864 656 5035
>> ians at clemson.edu
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of J. Kirk
>> Fitzhugh
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32 PM
>> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] More evidence turtles are diapsids
>>
>> True, the differences to which you refer are between the nature of the
>
>> test evidence required for testing theories (universals) and
> hypotheses,
>>
>> as well as the relations between observer, causes, and effects. These
>> are matters that have been recognized since the 19th century, and can
>> even be found in Popper's writings, as well as other 20th century
> works.
>>
>> I've pointed this out at great length in my own work. But, the
>> differences are nothing terribly earth shattering.
>>
>> My point all along is that we continue not to correctly address
> testing
>> in lieu of meaningless congruence, which is no test whatsoever and not
> a
>>
>> rational means to assess the veracity of hypotheses.
>>
>> Kirk
>>
>>
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