[Taxacom] Richmond and Jungers on Orrorin?

[John Grehan]

Pierre,

I will respecfully disagree with your view about molecualr sequence data. Other cladists do as well.

John Grehan


> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Pierre Deleporte
> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:41 AM
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Richmond and Jungers on Orrorin?
> 
> 
> Good point John,
> 
> this is effectively what phenetics is all about (clustering on overall
> similarity)
> yes you can write "phenetic" this time, it won't hurt...
> now you've just to chew a little bit more on what phenetics is not
> and you'll certainly improve your skills at communicating with the
> scientific community
> (e.g. cladistic analysis of molecular sequence data is not phenetic,
> even if it is not compatibility analysis either  ;-)
> 
> I apologize for inadvertently sending this rather personal message to
> the list
> 
> peace,
> Pierre
> 
> 
> John Grehan a écrit :
> > Tricky...but on page 1663, left column five lines from the bottoms they
> > say in reference to Fig. 1B that "modern humans and fossil Homo form a
> > group that is linked to a cluster of Australopithecus, Paranthropus, and
> > O. tugenensis, and these two groups are joined by a more distant cluster
> > of extant apes". Since they also characterize the clusters in 1B as
> > "affinities" would I be correct to say that their data an clustering
> > methods grouped Orrorin with Australopiths and that they interpreted
> > this clustering as affinities by which Orrorin was linked with Homo and
> > australopiths, and that African apes were linked with orangutans?
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> >> bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Jensen
> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:00 AM
> >> To: Barry Roth
> >> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Richmond and Jungers on Orrorin?
> >>
> >> And, that Richmond and Jungers didn't "group Orrorin with
> >> Australopiths". Their data, and their chosen method of analysis, did
> >> that. One might question the way they scored their OTUs, recorded and,
> >> perhaps, transformed, their data, and the methods chosen for their
> >> cluster analysis.
> >>
> >> Dick J
> >>
> >> Richard Jensen, Professor
> >> Department of Biology
> >> Saint Mary's College
> >> Notre Dame, IN 46556
> >> Tel: 574-284-4674
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Barry Roth wrote:
> >>
> >>> Only that "anomalies" should pique our interest ...
> >>>
> >>> --- On Tue, 5/19/09, John Grehan <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The paper by Richmond and Jungers seemed to mix up evidence of
> >>> bipedalism with evidence of relationship within bipedalism. In their
> >>> multivariate cluster analysis (Fig. 1B) they group Orrorin with
> >>> Australopiths rather than Homo, and refer to this arrangement as
> >>> summarize "affinities". If they are implyin that the mulivariate
> >>> simialrity is evidence of phylogenetic relationship then they have
> >>>
> > the
> >
> >>> anomaly of grouping the great apes with each other as a monophyletic
> >>> group, with African apes being more closely related to orangutans
> >>>
> > than
> >
> >>> humans. Any comment?
> >>>
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> --
> Pierre Deleporte
> Université de Rennes 1
> CNRS UMR6552 Ethologie Animale et Humaine
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