[Taxacom] [Fwd: FW: proper use of "de" in a French name]

Tue Apr 8 18:36:03 CDT 2008

According to Mike Ivie, who started this thread, we must first consult the persons being cited to find out how they would do it in their native language.  If those persons aredeceased, then we must consult someone who, apparently by birthright, shares the same native language for insight into how to do it.  We must not presume that those who speak and write French can provide instruction for citations of Dutch names, or vice-versa.

My personal view (speaking as a botanist, not a zoologist), is that each journal may establish its own rules and we should consult the editor for information about how the journal handles the citations.  

Cheers,

Dick J

Richard Jensen, Professor
Department of Biology
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, IN 46556

tel: 574-284-4674

----- Original Message -----
From: Mario Blanco <mblanco at flmnh.ufl.edu>
To: TAXACOM <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Sent: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:16:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Taxacom] [Fwd:  FW:  proper use of "de" in a French name]

Should the same treatment be given for the Dutch surnames that start 
with "van der" (e.g., van der Pijl, van der Cingel, etc.)? Should they 
be cited as Pijl and Cingel, correspondingly, in literature citations?

Thanks,
Mario

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[Taxacom] FW: proper use of "de" in a French name
Date: 	Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:40:08 -0400
From: 	José H. Leal <jleal at shellmuseum.org>
To: 	<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>

Ditto for the same situation in Portuguese. Regardless of what style manuals
postulate, the preposition ?de? should always be dropped when someone is
addressed by his/her last name. 

Literature citation of Portuguese family names preceded by the preposition
?de? (?de Souza, P. 1996?) sounds phony and uninformed to Portuguese
speakers of any academic persuasion. And the preposition is never
capitalized.

Saudações,

José     

________________________________________________________

José H. Leal, Ph.D., Director           

The Bailey-Matthews Shell Museum

Editor, The Nautilus            

www.shellmuseum.org                             

3075 Sanibel-Captiva Road

Sanibel, FL 33957 USA

(239)395-2233

fax (239)395-6706

-----Original Message-----
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
[mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Jean-François
Molino
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 8:51 AM
To: Hans Henderickx
Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] proper use of "de" in a French name

Hans

Actually, the case of Simone de Beauvoir is quite demonstrative:

In French, when her her first name is omitted, the "de" is dropped 

altogether. She is called "Beauvoir", and not only when starting a sentence.

Another example is Villepin, our former Prime Minister (Dominique 

Galouzeau de Villepin).

We would say "When Villepin was Prime Minister...". *

*

Jean-François

Hans Henderickx a écrit :

> Splitting or omitting parts of a name does not sound well to me, what do
you 

> think of:

> 

> Beauvoir grew up in a respected borgeois family, ... (Simone de Beauvoir)

> 

> this should be

> 

> De Beauvoir grew up in a respected borgeois family, ....

> 

> Hans

> 

> 

> ----- Original Message ----- 

> From: "Jean-François Molino" <jean-francois.molino at ird.fr>

> To: "Michael A. Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu>

> Cc: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>

> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:32 AM

> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] proper use of "de" in a French name

> 

> 

> Mike,

> I'm an actual French (nobody's perfect), and I agree with Laurent. I

> would recommend to omit the "de".

> 

> Jean-François Molino

> 

> Laurent Raty a écrit :

>   

>> Mike,

>> 

>> Starting a sentence without a capital letter is definitely *not*

>> normally an option, even ;-) in French.

>> 

>> You can try http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particule_(onomastique) if you

>> want general guidance about the formal use of such names in French.

>> 

>> "Bonvouloir's specimens" should theoretically be the best choice if you

>> want to start your sentence that way: omitting the "de" is the general

>> rule if the name stands alone (i.e., is not preceded by a first name

>> [Victor de Bonvouloir], another patronym [Achard de Bonvouloir], or a

>> title [vicomte de Bonvouloir, monsieur de Bonvouloir]).

>> There are exceptions, though; most notably, with very short names (not

>> more than one non-mute syllabe), the "de" would normally be retained; a

>> "du", "des" or "d'" would usually also be retained.

>> 

>> 

>> (Now, I think I would qualify as an "actual Francophone", but I'm not

>> an actual French. Here in Belgium, we are in a slightly peculiar

>> situation, because we are facing a mixture of many Flemish surnames

>> starting with the Dutch article "De" [often followed by a profession or

>> quality, like in "De Smet" - literally "The Smith" -, or "De Wit" - "The

>> White"], with actually much less numerous French surnames starting with

>> the French preposition "de" [not that exceptionally followed by a

>> Flemish locality name]. This makes things a bit confused at times and,

>> perhaps as a result, we often tend to retain any "de"/"De" whatever its

>> meaning. So my ears would in fact not really be offended by a sentence

>> starting with "De Bonvouloir's specimens" either...)

>> 

>> 

>> Hope this helps,

>> Laurent -

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Michael A. Ivie wrote:

>> 

>>     

>>> Not my question, which was "how would a Francophone do it", with a

>>> request that it be answered by an actual Francophone.  I know well

>>> how the Anglophones would mangle it.

>>> 

>>> Mike

>>> 

>>> Edwards, G.B. wrote:

>>> 

>>> 

>>>       

>>>> But when starting a sentence in English (Mike's question), the

>>>> first word is always capitalized, as far as I can recall, even a

>>>> normally uncapitalized article in a foreign language.  A perhaps

>>>> more interesting and applicable question regards the subsequent

>>>> geneology of the Vicomte in question:  Did his descendants adopt

>>>> Bonvouloir, de Bonvouloir, or (not inconceivably) Henry as the

>>>> surname.  I would argue that whichever of these is subsequently

>>>> correct (if there was only one) would be the name to be cited.  As

>>>> Mike noted, Vicomte de Bonvouloir is a title, not a surname.

>>>> 

>>>>         

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>> 

>> 

>>     

> 

> 

>   

-- 

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Jean-François Molino

Institut de Recherche pour le Développement (IRD)

Unité Mixte de Recherche "botAnique et bioinforMatique de l'Architecture des
Plantes" (AMAP)

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