[Taxacom] proper use of "de" in a French name

Tue Apr 8 10:08:21 CDT 2008

Well, as the preposition "de" (and the related "di") can be found  
also in Italian names, I think it may be of interest to know that in  
Italian, differently from French or Portuguese,  the "de (or De) is  
considered an integral part of the name, and is never dropped, at  
least in modern usage (a few historical names dropped it, i.e.  
Camillo Benso Conte di Cavour is referred to as Cavour, but his  
actual last name would be Benso anyway. Fortunately he was not a  
scientist).
Modern names starting with "De" (or de) keep it (of course when the  
preposition gets to be integrated into the name as Defranco, rather  
than De Franco, then there's no doubt whatsoever).
Additionally. the same applies also to names starting with an article  
(generally La or Lo).
Regards.

Dr Carmine Colacino
Laboratorio di Briologia
Dip. di Biologia Difesa e Biotecnologie Agro Forestali
Universita' della Basilicata
Viale dell'Ateneo Lucano, 10
85100 Potenza, Italy
Ph. +39-0971-206234; Fax +39-0971-206233
Lab.+39-0971/205346: Mob.+39-329-3178399
Alt. e-mail: colacino at bryology.eu
http://www.unibas.it/utenti/colacino/
http://www.bryology.eu/

On 8 Apr 2008, at 16:43, Michael A. Ivie wrote:

> Thank you Jean-François, and Laurent,
>
> This excercise has been very instructive of my original point.  It  
> seems
> to me that personal names should be handled the way the "owner" would
> have, and this requires cultural knowledge and sensitivitiy, not by  
> just
> a few "my-language" gramar rules.  The fact that Dutch, Flemish,  
> Belgian
> Francophone and French locals would each handle differently a local  
> name
> that looks to an American (me) to be the same is exactly why I was
> asking for specific expertise in this question.  It costs nothing, but
> is most respectful, to handle a person's name the way they would have
> been proud of, but not always easy.  In my family's culture, a  
> person's
> name is a very important and personal thing, of value and worth
> protecting.  Seems only right to treat the names of others in the  
> same way.
>
> Thanks to everyone who contributed,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> Jean-François Molino wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>> I'm an actual French (nobody's perfect), and I agree with Laurent. I
>> would recommend to omit the "de".
>>
>> Jean-François Molino
>>
>> Laurent Raty a écrit :
>>
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Starting a sentence without a capital letter is definitely *not*
>>> normally an option, even ;-) in French.
>>>
>>> You can try http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particule_(onomastique)  
>>> if you
>>> want general guidance about the formal use of such names in French.
>>>
>>> "Bonvouloir's specimens" should theoretically be the best choice  
>>> if you
>>> want to start your sentence that way: omitting the "de" is the  
>>> general
>>> rule if the name stands alone (i.e., is not preceded by a first name
>>> [Victor de Bonvouloir], another patronym [Achard de Bonvouloir],  
>>> or a
>>> title [vicomte de Bonvouloir, monsieur de Bonvouloir]).
>>> There are exceptions, though; most notably, with very short names  
>>> (not
>>> more than one non-mute syllabe), the "de" would normally be  
>>> retained; a
>>> "du", "des" or "d'" would usually also be retained.
>>>
>>>
>>> (Now, I think I would qualify as an "actual Francophone", but I'm  
>>> not
>>> an actual French. Here in Belgium, we are in a slightly peculiar
>>> situation, because we are facing a mixture of many Flemish surnames
>>> starting with the Dutch article "De" [often followed by a  
>>> profession or
>>> quality, like in "De Smet" - literally "The Smith" -, or "De Wit"  
>>> - "The
>>> White"], with actually much less numerous French surnames  
>>> starting with
>>> the French preposition "de" [not that exceptionally followed by a
>>> Flemish locality name]. This makes things a bit confused at times  
>>> and,
>>> perhaps as a result, we often tend to retain any "de"/"De"  
>>> whatever its
>>> meaning. So my ears would in fact not really be offended by a  
>>> sentence
>>> starting with "De Bonvouloir's specimens" either...)
>>>
>>>
>>> Hope this helps,
>>> Laurent -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael A. Ivie wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Not my question, which was "how would a Francophone do it", with a
>>>> request that it be answered by an actual Francophone.  I know well
>>>> how the Anglophones would mangle it.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> Edwards, G.B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But when starting a sentence in English (Mike's question), the
>>>>> first word is always capitalized, as far as I can recall, even a
>>>>> normally uncapitalized article in a foreign language.  A perhaps
>>>>> more interesting and applicable question regards the subsequent
>>>>> geneology of the Vicomte in question:  Did his descendants adopt
>>>>> Bonvouloir, de Bonvouloir, or (not inconceivably) Henry as the
>>>>> surname.  I would argue that whichever of these is subsequently
>>>>> correct (if there was only one) would be the name to be cited.  As
>>>>> Mike noted, Vicomte de Bonvouloir is a title, not a surname.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Taxacom mailing list
>>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> __________________________________________________
> NOTE NEW ADDRESS (As of 01/01/2007 DO NOT USE OLD P.O. BOX ADDRESS):
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> For Postal Service, FedEx, UPS or Freight Delivery:
>
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> Montana State University
> 1901 S. 19th Ave
> Bozeman, MT 59717-3020
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom mailing list
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>