[Taxacom] ZooBank reality check [ Scanned for viruses ]

Thu Sep 7 09:44:35 CDT 2006

Paul Kirk wrote:
> I'm not saying it's simple but there has to be some sort of 'evolution'.
>
> A few points:
>
> Why publish in journals which charge $2500?
>   
I didn't say one should.  Some journals may only charge $100.  The point 
is, not everyone can afford to pay such a fee.

> Where are the distribution cost when it's electronic and not thin sheets
> of wood - if the latter is required (for effective publication/being
> available) then local printing is the solution not centralized.
>   
Well, somebody has to pay for a connection to the internet and IP support. 

This is a problem that many societies face (I'm not talking about you or 
me publishing our own work independently).  Currently, the codes require 
hardcopy publication, so what are the options?
> Load publication costs into grants - $2500 is insignificant compared to
> staff costs for a 3 year project.
>   

I guess you live in the best of all possible worlds - everyone has grant 
money to support their research.  That's not the world most of us live in.
> Pdf's are a click away from a word processing document.
>   
Of course it is - if we have access to the facilities to do that.  
Again, you are assuming that everyone has access to the same facilities, 
which is clearly not the case (see Rod's previous post - his institution 
doesn't provide access to the journal in question).  My institution has 
a very restricted JSTOR subscription (no systematics journals included) 
and does not subscribe to BioOne.  I sometimes have to pay a fee if I 
want to see something "right now".
> I have a server which cost about $500 that runs five web sites, all
> database driven (SQL Server) including the IF web site (million hits per
> month) and the British Fungi site with a 1.2 million record table. Is it
> slow ... No, do the CPU's sit around doing nothing 99.9999999% of the
> time (like modern servers) ... No, are the disks all but empty (like
> modern servers) ... No, but there is still enough space for everything
> (and expansion) in 40GB.
>   

Who paid for the server and who pays fro replacement and updates? Not 
everyone is savvy enough to run a personal server nor has access to 
someone who will do it gratis.
> And JSTOR ... do they really think that there are people out there who
> would pay to see a page image of the 1898 volume of the Bryologist or
> volume 1 of the American Journal of Botany?
>   

They do, and there are. 

Cheers,

Dick
> Regards,
>
> Paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Jensen [mailto:rjensen at saintmarys.edu] 
> Sent: 07 September 2006 13:47
> To: Paul Kirk
> Cc: TAXACOM
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] ZooBank reality check [ Scanned for viruses ]
>
> Paul Kirk wrote"
>
> "The primary systematic literature must be made available free to the
> end user."
>
> OK, then who pays for the costs of publication and distribuition?  Who
> pays for the costs of creating web versions (pdf or html) and
> maintaining the servers?  Most professional societies that publish
> journals cannot afford to make these publications "free to the end
> user."  Perhaps Paul supports the proposed "open access" models in which
> the author pays fees ($2500 per article in one case) to cover these
> costs.  If that's the model, I will have to stop publishing in referreed
> journals, as will most of us.  
>
> I agree that we need easy access, and people who refuse to make their
> publications available in some easily transportable electronic format
> are obstructionists.  But it's not as easy as simply declaring that this
> information should be free and that all should have open access.
>
> The models being used by many societies are to have "subscriber only"
> access for a given period of time after the publication of the journal
> issue.  In some cases one year, in some cases longer.  Then the
> publication can be viewed "free" through JSTOR or other sites - assuming
> you either have a personal subscription to JSTOR or access to a library
> that subscribes (there are those pesky costs again).
>
> Dick J 
>
> Richard Jensen, Professor
> Department of Biology
> Saint Mary's College
> Notre Dame, IN 46556
> Tel: 574-284-4674
>
>
>
> Paul Kirk wrote:
>   
>> Google is free to use ... and is highly valued by users; people in
>>     
> ivory
>   
>> towers will never understand what goes on outside those towers ... and
>> what of those who cannot subscribe due to economic reasons? I would
>> never publish anything in a journal with such a policy.
>>
>> I'm sure we are all aware of wealthy people who buy works of art and
>> keep them locked in bank vaults ... for what? The primary systematic
>> literature must be made available free to the end user.
>>
>> Not much experience of things in copyright (have focussed on
>> historically important works out of copyright) but a specialist
>>     
> Society
>   
>> with a journal can be approached with a request for permission to scan
>> up to, for example, the last 10 years. This should protect the income
>> stream which for many Societies is their life blood. To their credit,
>> the Mycological Society of America (as one of a growing number) has
>> agreed to this. Get a few on board and the rest will more than likely
>> follow suit for fear of the 'name and shame' list.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Mesibov
>> Sent: 07 September 2006 10:48
>> To: TAXACOM
>> Cc: Hallan, Joel (biocat)
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] ZooBank reality check [ Scanned for viruses ]
>>
>> Re the fungi and ant scanning/distributing projects:
>>
>> A leading authority in my field, who edits a specialist journal, has
>> flatly
>> refused to allow the journal to be made available in PDF form. He
>>     
> wrote:
>   
>> "Not sympathetic with the idea of making the contents (text) available
>> free
>> to everybody in the world. Over the years I have paid for over half
>>     
> the
>   
>> printing and postal costs, and work on the principle that people do
>>     
> not
>   
>> value anything that is free. I think that users should shoulder some
>>     
> of
>   
>> the
>> cost of production, even if only a few actually ever buy parts or
>> subscribe
>> to the thing by volume."
>>
>> A second authority also refuses to let his published work be
>>     
> digitised.
>   
>> Further, after I had scanned a large number of his illustrations
>>     
> (vital
>   
>> in
>> this particular group's taxonomy) and formatted them for a taxonomic
>> website, I was told by the authority that he didn't want them to be
>>     
> used
>   
>> in
>> this way. He regards some uses of his work as outright plagiarism and
>> wants
>> taxonomists and others to go to his original publications.
>>
>> I'm wondering whether something similar has happened in the ant and
>> fungi
>> literature digitising, and if so, how these gaps in the digitised
>> literature
>> are handled by your bibliographic portals.
>> ---
>> Dr Robert Mesibov
>> Honorary Research Associate, Queen Victoria Museum and Art Gallery
>> and School of Zoology, University of Tasmania
>> Home contact: PO Box 101, Penguin, Tasmania, Australia 7316
>> (03) 64371195; 61 3 64371195
>>
>> Tasmanian Multipedes
>> http://www.qvmag.tas.gov.au/zoology/multipedes/mulintro.html
>> Spatial data basics for Tasmania
>> http://www.utas.edu.au/spatial/locations/index.html
>> ---
>>
>>
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