[Taxacom] Taxacom Digest, Vol 185, Issue 22

[John Grehan]

looks like I did not send my earlier email to Taxacom as intended. Anyway,
below:

Brendon E. Boudinot

11:00 AM (2 minutes ago)

to me


Dear John,

"This is biogeographically a Pacific centered distribution and is more
consistent with an ancestral range that spanned the Pacific rather than
across Gondwana, other than peripherally (the Asian range may be associated
with the former Tethy for example)."

For further clarification, you are hypothesizing that the most recent
common ancestor of Syscia had a distribution that spanned the Indomalayan
and Neotropical regions, with some subsequent mechanism leading to
allopatric speciation of the surviving populations—is this correct?

*Yes, in part, but that the ancestral range also spanned the Pacific rather
than core Gondwana (based on the present evidence)*

"Longino & Branstetter assert that "The Asian and American species are
estimated to have diverged ~20 million years ago (Ma) (Borowiec 2019)." but
this is incorrect since Boroweic's estimate used fossil calibration so the
divergence age can only be said to be AT LEAST 20 Ma."

Note that the authors did not misrepresent the estimate in their phrasing,
as "~20 Ma" is the approximate mean of the 95% highest probability density
of Borowiec (2019). The HPD from this study for the Syscia crown node spans
~28–13 Ma, based on the model of molecular evolution, the minimum age
calibrations, and the genomic sampling of the Dorylinae. If one were to
make an "at least" statement, one would state "Syscia may be at least 13
million years old".

*Sure – that's the point. Any extrapolated fossil calibrated age is a
minimum. One can create probability curves, but the age is still a minimum,
whether 28 or 13, or anything else.*

"Longino & Branstetter say "We save detailed analysis of biogeographic
patterns for later investigation, but note that the New World Syscia clade
appears to have originated and diversified in the Middle American corridor,
with perhaps two incursions into South America and one into the Caribbean"
but they did not say how they reached that conclusion."

It will be great to see the expanded sampling of the forthcoming doryline
phylogenomic study.

*Agreed*



On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:00 AM Brendon E. Boudinot <boudinotb at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> "This is biogeographically a Pacific centered distribution and is more
> consistent with an ancestral range that spanned the Pacific rather than
> across Gondwana, other than peripherally (the Asian range may be associated
> with the former Tehtys for example)."
>
> For further clarification, you are hypothesizing that the most recent
> common ancestor of *Syscia *had a distribution that spanned the
> Indomalayan and Neotropical regions, with some subsequent mechanism leading
> to allopatric speciation of the surviving populations—is this correct?
>
> "Longino & Branstetter assert that "The Asian and American species are
> estimated to have diverged ~20 million years ago (Ma) (Borowiec 2019)." but
> this is incorrect since Boroweic's estimate used fossil calibration so the
> divergence age can only be said to be AT LEAST 20 Ma."
>
> Note that the authors did not misrepresent the estimate in their phrasing,
> as "~20 Ma" is the approximate mean of the 95% highest probability density
> of Borowiec (2019). The HPD from this study for the *Syscia *crown
> node spans ~28–13 Ma, based on the model of molecular evolution, the
> minimum age calibrations, and the genomic sampling of the Dorylinae. If one
> were to make an "at least" statement, one would state "*Syscia *may be at
> least 13 million years old".
>
> "Longino & Branstetter say "We save detailed analysis of biogeographic
> patterns for later investigation, but note that the New World Syscia clade
> appears to have originated and diversified in the Middle American corridor,
> with perhaps two incursions into South America and one into the Caribbean"
> but they did not say how they reached that conclusion."
>
> It will be great to see the expanded sampling of the forthcoming doryline
> phylogenomic study.
>
> Cheers,
> Brendon
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:42 PM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Brendon,
>>
>> "..understood you correctly, you are hypothesizing that the most recent
>> common
>> ancestor of the crown group of the genus *Syscia* was distributed across
>> Gondwana, and that subsequent rifting, *etc.*, led to the presently
>> observed distribution of the clade?"
>>
>> Since the group is absent from major parts of Gondwana (e.g Africa,
>> Australia) the distribution does not really fit all that well. Instead
>> (going by antweb) there is a southeast Asian-Japan-Sri Lanka range (only
>> hitting core Gondwana with Sri Lanka) and then the New World (with a
>> concentration of records in C America - don't know if that is just
>> concentration of locality records or species diversity). This is
>> biogeographically a Pacific centered distribution and is more consistent
>> with an ancestral range that spanned the Pacific rather than across
>> Gondwana, other than peripherally (the Asian range may be associated with
>> the former Tehtys for example). It is a distribution pattern encountered
>> with numerous other animal and plant taxa (which is really a key point).
>> The Pacific disjunction would be consistent with ancestral vicariance
>> through formation of the Pacific plate dislocating former Large Igneous
>> Provinces and associated terrestrial outcrops (large or small islands, or
>> island archipelagos. Antweb shows the range in America extending well into
>> southern Peru and Brazil. Is that accurate information?
>>
>> Longino & Branstetter assert that "The Asian and American species are
>> estimated to have diverged ~20 million years ago (Ma) (Borowiec 2019)." but
>> this is incorrect since Boroweic's estimate used fossil calibration so the
>> divergence age can only be said to be AT LEAST 20 Ma.
>>
>> Longino & Branstetter say "We save detailed analysis of biogeographic
>> patterns for later investigation, but note that the New World Syscia
>> clade appears to have originated and diversified in the Middle American
>> corridor, with perhaps two incursions into South America and one into
>> the Caribbean" but they did not say how they reached that conclusion.
>>
>> Interested to know if you have any data that preclude the Pacific
>> possibility. Also interested in your feedback on that SEA disjunction
>> recently posted.
>>
>> Cheers, John
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 7:49 AM Brendon E. Boudinot via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear John,
>>>
>>> Would you please clarify the hypothesis that you are proposing? If I
>>> understood you correctly, you are hypothesizing that the most recent
>>> common
>>> ancestor of the crown group of the genus *Syscia* was distributed across
>>> Gondwana, and that subsequent rifting, *etc.*, led to the
>>> presently observed distribution of the clade? If this is not correct,
>>> please do outline the scenario.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Brendon
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 7:05 PM <taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List
>>> >
>>> > When responding to a message, please do not copy the entire digest into
>>> > your reply.
>>> > ____________________________________
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Today's Topics:
>>> >
>>> >    1. Syscia ant biogeography (John Grehan)
>>> >    2. Re: Author surname Clark or James-Clark? (Henry James     Clark)
>>> >       (Tony Rees)
>>> >    3. Taxonomic impediment (John Grehan)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 1
>>> > Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 14:26:38 -0400
>>> > From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>>> > To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>>> > Subject: [Taxacom] Syscia ant biogeography
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >         <
>>> > CADN0ud29+OUoAOVqjtm0qC+t-dqxiNtxJR6GVyBwsVw+8-Hd7w at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>> >
>>> > Hi Brendon,
>>> >
>>> > While some recent conceptual discussion is interesting, some may feel
>>> more
>>> > at home with specific instances and in this respect I was interested
>>> to see
>>> > the distribution of Syscia which I understand to be distributed in the
>>> New
>>> > World from southern US to Colombia and including the Caribbean, and in
>>> > Thailand - Japan - Sri Lanka (and apparently other unnamed species in
>>> the
>>> > region). As a geographic range, I am sure you will appreciate its
>>> contrast
>>> > to Leptomyrmex. As a range, Syscia is painfully obvious as a classic
>>> > Pacific centered range extending to the Indian subcontinent as the only
>>> > core Gondwana region. Syscia could indeed represent a Pacific group
>>> (i.e.
>>> > its ancestral range spanned what is now the Pacific), or it could be a
>>> > Gondwanic group that has become extinct across Africa/Madagascar, as
>>> well
>>> > as much of South America, not to mention other places. But it is
>>> > interesting that Longino & Branstetter 2020 place a Sri Lankan and
>>> > Malaysian species (each) within a Mexico-Costa Rica subclade. It would
>>> also
>>> > be interesting to know the sister genus and its distribution. Can you
>>> offer
>>> > any enlightenment on that?
>>> >
>>> > Cheers, John
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 2
>>> > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 05:30:37 +1000
>>> > From: Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com>
>>> > To: Valery MALECOT <valery.malecot at agrocampus-ouest.fr>,  taxacom
>>> >         <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, Andy Mabbett <
>>> > andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>>> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Author surname Clark or James-Clark? (Henry
>>> >         James   Clark)
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >         <
>>> > CABEjCKN4koPXoCTiwmO9zP8OUWi1NSH-Km7_cQyPmHtLqChUTg at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>> >
>>> > An "Aha!" moment perhaps... Heteromastix (genus) and Heteromastix
>>> > proteiformis (species), both published in the sole work listed above
>>> that
>>> > is under the authorship "Henry James Clark" (thus previously suggested
>>> by
>>> > me to be treated as "Clark") are listed as "Heteromastix, Jas.-Clk."
>>> and
>>> > "Heteromastix proteiformis, Jas.-Clk." by the author himself, in
>>> > publication [5]. Thus, I feel that this justifies citing the
>>> authorship of
>>> > all taxa by the author in question as James-Clark. Thoughts? Regards -
>>> Tony
>>> > Rees
>>> >
>>> > Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
>>> > https://about.me/TonyRees
>>> > www.irmng.org
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 3
>>> > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 09:05:15 -0400
>>> > From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>>> > To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>>> > Subject: [Taxacom] Taxonomic impediment
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >         <CADN0ud0QmMv8LYHq3k5MpiQrNyx4GyY-qGU24aBO=
>>> > Uwywc9Q2g at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>> >
>>> > Maybe someone posted about this already, I am not sure, so apologies in
>>> > advance:  Engel et al 2021 "The taxonomic impediment: a shortage of
>>> > taxonomists, not the lack of technical approaches" Zoological Journal
>>> of
>>> > the Linnean Society, 2021, 193, 381–387.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>> >
>>> > Taxacom Mailing List
>>> >
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>>> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 34 years,
>>> 1987-2021.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 185, Issue 22
>>> > ****************************************
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr. Brendon E. Boudinot
>>> Alexander von Humboldt Research Fellow
>>> Friedrich-Schiller-Universität Jena
>>> Institut für Zoologie und Evolutionsforschung
>>> Erbertstraße 1
>>> 07443 Jena DE
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Taxacom Mailing List
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>>> http://taxacom.markmail.org
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>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 34 years, 1987-2021.
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Brendon E. Boudinot
> Alexander von Humboldt Research Fellow
> Friedrich-Schiller-Universität Jena
> Institut für Zoologie und Evolutionsforschung
> Erbertstraße 1
> 07443 Jena DE
>