[Taxacom] panbiogeography suppression

[John Grehan]

Hi Jason,

Comments below bold text.

*Science is falsifiability through evidence and Croizatian*

*panbiogeography is pretty much the opposite in many cases (it is*

*cherry picking). *

So you say.

*I (and most taxonomists I believe) have no issue with*

*articles that collect "patterns" which are a priori consistent with*

*geological processes. That is the bread and butter of biogeography *

But panbiogeography is not about collecting patterns that are consistent
with geological processes! It is about matching biological patterns with
tectonic structures (tectonic patterns) that are responsible for geological
processes.

*but it needs to be tested.*

Tectonic correlations are a matter of empirical record.

*When it becomes "not science" is when patterns are rammed down the throat
in spite of other evidence,*

So you say.

*which invariably is disregarded as "defective".*

Not specific, so cannot comment.

*This makes it pseudo-science.*

Uninformative

*If your patterns are incongruent with other evidence then they are
doubtful*

If?

*and when inconsistent with all other evidence*

such as?

Cheers, John




On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:07 PM JF Mate via Taxacom <
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:

> "Maori science". Unpack that John. As Ziv had said, other than the call to
> journals to reject papers at face value the rest of their article is spot
> on. Science is falsifiability through evidence and Croizatian
> panbiogeography is pretty much the opposite in many cases (it is
> cherrypicking). I (and most taxonomists I believe) have no issue with
> articles that collect "patterns" which are a priori consistent with
> geological processes. That is the bread and butter of biogeography but it
> needs to be tested. When it becomes "not science" is when patterns are
> rammed down the throat in spite of other evidence, which invariably is
> disregarded as "defective". This makes it pseudo-science. If your patterns
> are incongruent with other evidence then they are doubtful and when
> inconsistent with all other evidence then it is, lacking other evidence,
> wrong. Accept that and you will find people more receptive.
>
> Best
>
> Jason
>
> On Sat., 4 Sep. 2021, 07:57 John Grehan via Taxacom, <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > Hi Ziv,
> >
> > I expect you won't know about a recent attempt in NZ by some scientists
> to
> > disconnect Maori science from other science. So I don't understand what
> is
> > dishonest about referencing such a possibility.
> >
> > Cheers, John
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 5:29 PM Ziv Lieberman via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > John,
> > > Your question "why not, for example, call for the suppression of Māori
> > > science?" is, at best, poorly thought through, and at worst an
> > intentional,
> > > dishonest conflation of issues which is deeply disrespectful. I choose
> to
> > > not infer where your intentions fall on this spectrum.
> > >
> > > While I actually don't agree with the recommendations of Waters et al.
> > > (2013) to not publish panbiogeographic works as a blanket policy, there
> > are
> > > some obvious differences in the scenario called for in this paper and
> > your
> > > hypothetical situation. Waters et al. (2013) lay out a cogent,
> > > evidence-based, and highly specific criticism of the panbiogeographic
> > > approach. They give explicit reference to epistemological and
> > > methodological conflicts between panbiogeography and the modern
> approach,
> > > which they illustrate with particular examples. In other words, they
> > > clearly justify*—*or at the very least, explain*—*their contention that
> > "as
> > > it stands, panbiogeography is not a useful approach for evolutionary
> > > biology" (p. 3). They provide a structure which could be responded to,
> > > point by point, with evidence of your own.
> > >
> > > Obviously, no such logical structure could be erected to dismiss
> research
> > > produced by a (real or perceived) racial or ethnic group. Of course,
> > > history has seen many such attempts to justify eugenics and other
> > > scientific racism. But such arguments would be patently untrue, i.e.
> > unable
> > > to withstand logical, scientific, and moral refutation.
> > >
> > > In summary: your choice of language and analogy degrade your point as a
> > > whole, discredit your position as a critical thinker, and represent
> > > co-option of social justice issues into an unrelated scientific
> > discussion.
> > > In fact, the use of this analogy makes it seem like you lack an
> > > understanding of the problem you are criticizing, whether that is true
> or
> > > not. This tactic also detracts from the realities of the
> marginalization
> > of
> > > indigenous peoples, which ironically contributes to upholding the kind
> of
> > > (historical and present) exclusionism which you are taking advantage of
> > to
> > > express your outrage.  You cannot behave this way while simultaneously
> > > calling for scientific integrity and credibility.
> > >
> > > -Ziv Lieberman
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