[Taxacom] scientific predictions concerning Wallacean marsupials and primates
Michael Heads
m.j.heads at gmail.com
Sun Jun 24 01:38:22 CDT 2018
Hi Jason,
You write:
'The problem is not “emphasis” on vicariance but in
outright denial of dispersal'
This is a strawman. We have never denied dispersal. If you read my last
posts, you will see I cite plenty of examples, e.g. the 8 widespread clades
of primats in Amrica, the 10 in Africa and the 9 in Asia. You can see
dispersal every day. All (almost) individual plants and animals have
dispersed to their present position.
On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 5:28 PM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com> wrote:
> “...they lack a coherent analytical foundation and instead tend to
> ignore or explain away anything to the contrary. … While at least one
> person has characterized this discussion as a waste of time etc., …
> While some on this list have been critical of the emphasis on
> vicariance, this emphasis is analysis driven”
>
>
> OK, I´ll bite. The problem is not “emphasis” on vicariance but in
> outright denial of dispersal. I have been consistent about this so I
> can only conclude from the above remarks that “playing the victim” is
> part of your argumentation. The “coherent analytical foundation” that
> you refer to is fitting the data on to tectonics. Sorry but this is
> not science unless you have a null hypothesis, and you are quite clear
> that you don´t (unlike other branches of panbiogeography who have
> dropped this untenable idea and accept that LDD exists). This school
> of panbiogeography that you adhere to falls outside the realm of
> science and it is more like a compendium of patterns with no checking
> mechanism. Evidence to back this view:
>
>
> Platyrrhini and primate evolution in general. You insist that a more
> parsimonious explanation would be to assume that the fossil record,
> which broadly mirrors the phyogenetic sequence of splits is wrong by
> 2.5 times the age, in every single lineage. Your evidence is that the
> plate tectonics require it to be so and that everything else must be
> wrong as well. Result, panbiogeographic claim that is unfalsifiable.
>
>
> Nymphalid butterflies and observed current vagrants. I had to press to
> get an answer out of either of you, but in the end you say that these
> are examples of “normal” dispersal. If so, I submit that said normal
> dispersals are the origin for patterns of past dispersals as can be
> found in comprehensive phylogenies such as those of metalstreaks (DOI:
> 10.1098/rspb.2010.2213 ) Riodinidae
> (doi.org/10.1016/j.ympev.2015.08.006) or species groups such as
> Polygonia (DOI: 10.1111/j.1096-3642.2001.tb02470.x), and that these
> dispersal to lead obviously lead to speciation since a restricted
> geneflow is conducive to divergence. I can´t see how you can make the
> distinction or on what it is based.
>
>
> What is surprising is not that these dispersals happen but how
> difficult it is for the vagrants to establish a foothold in spite of
> continuous dispersal events (e.s. Aglais io has not formed colonies in
> NA as far as I know and it is a rare but anual occurrence, same with
> Vanessa virginiensis, which has only managed to establish itself in
> historical times in the Canary islands) even when conditions are
> suitable. This in part answers Michael´s the original question of “why
> only once”.
>
>
> I mentioned that the Malagasy dung beetle fauna showed elements of
> both mechanisms at work. The fact that so many species are shared with
> the mainland (including taxa such as termitophilous Rhyparini, over
> 2/3 of the fauna) and that 95% of the lineages are shared with the
> Afrotropical region (but not India) should be enough to show that,
> although difficult, some things can get across.
>
> Continuing with insects and biotic filtering, Wallacea. So many
> examples of taxa that have originated on one side and then spread and
> diversified on the other: Onthophagus (several invasions by Oriental
> species - doi: 10.1016/j.ympev.2016.08.016. Epub 2016 Aug 2 );
> Hybosoridae: Phaeochrous (emarginatus (several subspecies, ranging
> from Pakistan to Australia)) ; Dytiscidae: Hydaticus pacificus grp;
> Ataenius australasiae (several subspecies ranging from S. China to
> NSW); Passalidae (Leptaulax); ...
>
> "If it disagrees with experience, the guess is wrong. In that simple
> statement is the key to science. It doesn’t matter how beautiful your
> guess is or how smart you are or what your name is. If it disagrees
> with experience, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it."
>
> Best
>
> On 21 June 2018 at 17:12, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have found Ken's assertions about chance dispersal to be quite
> > informative as it shows that the manner of reasoning about chance
> dispersal
> > has not changed from the time of Darwin who imagined the process and felt
> > that it could not be denied. Some of the inherent problems with
> > imagination, I would argue, is that they lack a coherent analytical
> > foundation and instead tend to ignore or explain away anything to the
> > contrary.
> > For example, with the statement:
> >
> > "The examples given in the last paragraph of your post are indeed
> > fascinating and indicative of vicariance, And although they could also
> > involve some short distance island hopping as well, no long distance
> > dispersals would be required."
> >
> > If they could involve island hopping then the patterns cannot be
> indicative
> > of vicariance. What is left out of the picture here is that there is a
> > cohesive set of patterns correlated with tectonics which does provide
> > evidence of a vicariance history. Here there is a direct link in
> reasoning
> > between evidence and conclusion.
> >
> > "They are therefore somewhat similar to the marsupial expansion westward
> > into Wallacea. "
> >
> > Of course this begs the question of what is the empirical evidence that
> > marsupials ever 'expanded' into the region.
> >
> > "This is exactly the opposite of tarsiers that came from the other
> > direction and have their easternmost occurrences there."
> >
> > Again, no empirical evidence has every been presented for such a notion.
> >
> >
> > "None of your examples are of taxa going from west to east, so it is sort
> > of like comparing apples and oranges."
> >
> > Do you mean taxa that have an eastern boundary in SEA?
> >
> > "In any case, all those examples just make me even more impressed that
> > cuscuses (which also expanded westward)"
> >
> > No evidence.
> >
> > "were actually able to become established even further westward into
> > Sulawesi. Of course, it could be that they just entered Wallacea a lot
> > earlier than the examples you gave. Or perhaps they are very competitive
> > and very good at dispersal."
> >
> > Or perhaps not. No evidence. I have no problem with propositions of
> chance
> > dispersal, but in a science of biogeography one needs more than just an
> > assertion of a possiblity.
> >
> > "I would predict that carefully designed experiments..."
> >
> > Problem with these experiments is that they do not actually provide a
> > exclusionary text - the outcomes either way cannot exclude the
> alternative.
> > Thus one might find they do not coexist which might be dismissed as an
> > artifact of the current conditions, or they do coexist which might also
> be
> > explained away by the same argument. Early on Darwin 'tested' snail
> > dispersal by showing that pond snails could adhere to duck's feet or that
> > seeds could survive immersion in salt water. But these experiments
> actually
> > did not demonstrate anything in particular about whether or not such
> > ecological processes were involved in the origins of allopatric
> > distribution. Rather than ecology being informative about the mechanisms
> of
> > biogeographic origin, it is biogeographic analysis that is informative
> > about the role of ecological processes in biogeographic differentiation
> > (evolution).
> >
> > "And thirdly, any evidence showing that cuscuses might have entered
> > Sulawesi earlier than monkeys could also be scientifically valuable. My
> > hypothesis would predict that cuscuses probably got there before
> monkeys."
> >
> > Herein lies the crux of the matter. Is the occurrence of cuscuses in
> > Sulawesi linked to the tectonic history of the region or the result of
> > chance dispersal. The biogeography would indicate that tectonics has been
> > the main player in the structure of allopatric distributions in SEA.
> While
> > some on this list have been critical of the emphasis on vicariance, this
> > emphasis is analysis driven, not simply imagined and asserted.
> >
> > While at least one person has characterized this discussion as a waste of
> > time etc., I do find Ken's perspective of interest to discuss and
> critique.
> > It is actually quite rare in the literature to directly view any direct
> > interactions between supporters of chance dispersal and supporters of
> > vicariance evidence. So in that respect the discussion, even if it may
> not
> > resolve anything in any absolute sense, may be helpful to those who are
> in
> > the process of developing their perspectives (and I am sure that there
> are
> > some on this list in that situation).
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Michael,
> >>
> >> The examples given in the last paragraph of your post are indeed
> >> fascinating and indicative of vicariance, And although they could also
> >> involve some short distance island hopping as well, no long distance
> >> dispersals would be required.
> >> However, all these examples are taxa whose westernmost
> occurrences
> >> are on islands such as Peleng and Sangihe. They are therefore somewhat
> >> similar to the marsupial expansion westward into Wallacea. This is
> exactly
> >> the opposite of tarsiers that came from the other direction and have
> their
> >> easternmost occurrences there. None of your examples are of taxa going
> >> from west to east, so it is sort of like comparing apples and oranges.
> >> In any case, all those examples just make me even more impressed
> >> that cuscuses (which also expanded westward) were actually able to
> become
> >> established even further westward into Sulawesi. Of course, it could be
> >> that they just entered Wallacea a lot earlier than the examples you
> gave.
> >> Or perhaps they are very competitive and very good at dispersal.
> >> ANYWAY, if you want predictions that are scientifically testable,
> >> here are some. I would predict that carefully designed experiments
> placing
> >> male cuscuses with monkeys (male or female) of roughly equal weight
> >> (including cuscuses vs. macaques) might well find cuscuses able to hold
> >> their ground. If so, my hypothesis of well-established cuscuses on
> islands
> >> east of Sulawesi being able to competitively exclude dispersing pregnant
> >> females (in particular) could provide scientific evidence in its favor.
> >> And secondly, given the size of Sulawesi and its wide range of habitats,
> >> detailed maps (of "fine geographic scale") of cuscus and macaque
> >> distributions might also be scientifically valuable. And thirdly, any
> >> evidence showing that cuscuses might have entered Sulawesi earlier than
> >> monkeys could also be scientifically valuable. My hypothesis would
> predict
> >> that cuscuses probably got there before monkeys.
> >> -------------------Ken
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 5:12 PM
> >> To: Kenneth Kinman
> >> Cc: Taxacom
> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Fwd: competition on Peleng (actually versus two
> >> specie of cuscus)
> >>
> >> Hi Ken,
> >>
> >> Consider a group present in area A and B, while its sister is in B and
> C.
> >>
> >> Dispersal theory (your model) proposes a centre of origin of the whole
> >> group in B, followed by chance dispersal to A in one group, and to C in
> the
> >> other.Vicariance theory (my model) proposes an ancestor present in A, B
> and
> >> C, followed by a vicariant break somewhere in or around B (mediated by
> >> geology/climate), followed by overlap (dispersal) in B by one or both
> >> groups (caused by geology/climate).
> >>
> >> Monkeys, apes etc. (simians or anthropoids) range through America,
> Africa
> >> and Asia to Sulawesi (not Peleng, Siau or Sangihe). Their sister goup,
> >> tarsiers, range from SE Asia to Peleng, Siau and Sangihe (PSS). In
> >> dispersal theory, the tarsiers on PSS migrated to these islands (not
> their
> >> precursors) from the Sulawesi mainland using means that are essentially
> >> mysterious (Shekelle). In vicariance, the records on PSS are not the
> result
> >> of random processes, but reflect the ancestral distribution of the
> simian +
> >> tarsier common ancestor, and the break between them, caused by
> geological
> >> change. PSS and eastern Sulawesi are the result of terranes and
> subduction
> >> zones that have migrated west from New Guinea and the Pacific, 'piling
> up'
> >> at Sulawesi. The PSS tarser belt is probably a small fraction, a relic,
> of
> >> the original insular distribution, while the large ocean basins they
> were
> >> distributed across have been subducted.
> >>
> >> The key question is: why is the 'tarsier belt' on these particular small
> >> islands (PSS) and not others in the region? How can we distinguish
> between
> >> the two models? Dispersal theory makes no special predictions, as chance
> >> dispersal is not related to any other factor, biological or physical.
> >> Vicariance theory makes the prediction that these geographically
> >> insignificant islands will also be significant biogeographically for
> many
> >> other groups, as they have been exposed to the same geology. Here are
> some
> >> examples:
> >>
> >> The bird genus Eutrichomyias is endemic on Sangihe (= Sanghir) and has
> its
> >> closest relative in Fiji (see 'Relicts of the lost arc..', Mol Phylogen
> >> Evol 120: 28. 2018). The closest relative of the bird Colluricincla
> >> sanghirensis, endemic on Sangihe, is on islands off the eastern tip of
> New
> >> Guinea. The Pacific clade of the skink Lamprolepis has western outliers
> on
> >> Peleng and Sangihe (Fig. 10.6 in my Australasia book). (Note that Peleng
> >> and Sangihe are 600 km apart, while Peleng is only 25 km off mainland
> >> Sulawesi). The parrot genus Eos ranges from New Guinea to Sangihe.
> Another
> >> parrot Loriculus amabilis is only on Peleng (also nearby Sula), Siau,
> and
> >> Sangihe. The diverse frog Platymantis s.l. ranges from Fiji to Peleng
> and
> >> Sangihe (and the Philippines), but not Sulawesi (Fig. 10.7 in my
> >> Australasia book).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 1:14 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com
> >> <mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>> wrote:
> >> Hi Michael,
> >>
> >> Although my hypothesis of Wallacea being a battleground between
> >> primates and cuscuses ("marsupial monkeys" as they are sometimes called)
> >> may seem ad hoc, but I think it is worth pursuing. I finding it
> >> particularly interesting that the bear cuscus is unusual in being
> diurnal,
> >> so we have both diurnal and nocturnal cuscuses and primates in this
> >> battleground.
> >>
> >> Sulawesi being a much larger island seems able to accomodate a
> mix
> >> of species that would not be possible on the much smaller islands to the
> >> east. That tarsiers were able to spread to some of those much smaller
> >> islands could be due to their small size and secretive nature. Or
> perhaps
> >> they just got there before cuscuses.
> >>
> >> All of these small islands in Wallacea seem to be an evolutionary
> >> filter in both directions, and as a mammalogist, I am finding the mix of
> >> primates and marsupials particularly interesting. And cuscuses
> ("marsupial
> >> monkeys") are not as well studied, and it is thought that there are
> still
> >> undiscovered species in this region.
> >>
> >> But there are admittedly other factors that make this
> battleground
> >> region more difficult to understand. The changing ocean currents and
> >> changes in sea level that Scott mentioned could be a major factor for
> some
> >> organisms and not for others. It is no wonder why biogeographers find
> >> Wallacea so interesting (and frustrating).
> >>
> >> -----------Ken
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:
> taxacom-bounces@
> >> mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> on behalf of Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com
> >> <mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 6:33 AM
> >> To: Taxacom
> >> Subject: [Taxacom] Fwd: competition on Peleng (actually versus two
> species
> >> of cuscus)
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com
> >> <mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Ken,
> >> >
> >> > Monkeys range east only to Sulawesi, while the only primates east of
> >> there
> >> > are tarsiers on the interesting chain of islands: Peleng, Siau and
> >> > Sangihe. The cuscuses Strigocuscus and Ailurops are both on Sulawesi
> >> > and Peleng, Strigo. is also on Siau and Sangihe. Why would the
> cuscuses
> >> > prevent monkeys establishing on Peleng, Siau and Sangihe by
> competition
> >> > when they all live together on Sulawesi?
> >> >
> >> > A closely related question is why and how tarsiers are on Peleng, Siau
> >> and
> >> > Sangihe. The expert on this group, Myron Shekelle, admitted that 'How
> >> > tarsiers ever came to these islands is a mystery'. Also, why are
> >> > tarsiers on *these *islands, but not further east?
> >> >
> >> > The islands in this 'tarsier belt' - Peleng, Siau and Sangihe - are
> >> > geographically insignificant, but form one of the most interesting
> areas
> >> in
> >> > the world for biogeographers and geologists (distributions and
> geology in
> >> > the region are illustrated in Figs. 5-15 and 5-16 of my Tropics book).
> >> E.g.
> >> > apart from the tarsiers it has one of the highest densities of
> >> > endemic birds in the world. Why? Many of the birds are related to
> groups
> >> > further east (including eastern New Guinea groups, 1000s of km away),
> not
> >> > to groups on the much closer Sulawesi. The geology is also very
> unusual
> >> - the
> >> > Sangihe and Halmahera arcs are undergoing the only active arc
> collision
> >> on
> >> > Earth. Most biogeographers understand that at a subduction zone, such
> as
> >> > the Sangihe SZ, the plates move towards each other. What many
> >> > biogeographers do not understand is that active subduction zones
> >> (producing
> >> > islands) themselves often move long distances, at rates of ~10cm/yr.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com
> >> <mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Dear all,
> >> >>
> >> >> I am still catching up on the changing taxonomy of the
> cuscuses.
> >> >> Back when I was working on our 1st Edition of the reference book
> "Mammal
> >> >> Species of the World" (1st Edition, by Honacki, Kinman, and Koeppl,
> >> 1982),
> >> >> Strigocuscus was included within genus Phalanger, but genetic data
> since
> >> >> then has apparently shown them to be in separate subfamilies.
> >> >>
> >> >> In any case, although the species of Strigocuscus on Sulawesi
> and
> >> >> Peleng Island is a "pygmy" species, the other species on Peleng is a
> >> more
> >> >> normal size. I had overlooked is that the bear cuscus is also on
> Peleng
> >> >> Island. So any monkey trying to become established on Peleng Island
> >> would
> >> >> have faced two species of well-established species of cuscuses.
> >> >>
> >> >> So it is even less surprising that monkeys did not expand east
> of
> >> >> Sulawesi. The battle ground between monkeys and marsupial cuscuses
> >> seems
> >> >> most intense between Sulawesi and nearby Peleng Island. This
> >> battleground
> >> >> in Wallacea seems to have favored cuscus over monkeys, even though
> they
> >> >> managed to coexist on the westernmost Wallacean island of Sulawesi.
> >> Just a
> >> >> matter of Sulawesi being a larger island with more competition
> allowing
> >> a
> >> >> stalemate of sorts. Both monkeys and cuscuses survived there, but
> not
> >> >> further east, and cuscuses did not survive further west. Something
> that
> >> >> neither Wallace's Line nor Weber's Line seems to have anticipated.
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Ken Kinman
> >> >>
> >> >> P.S. When cuscuses were first discovered they were thought to be a
> >> >> species monkey. So similar to monkeys in their form, habitat, and
> food
> >> >> sources, but only the discovery that cuscuses were pouched marsupials
> >> did
> >> >> their true relationship become known. I'm not sure if you could say
> >> that
> >> >> they are more like monkeys or lemurs. In any case, monkeys would
> have
> >> met
> >> >> their match in both Madagascar (versus lemurs) and east of Sulawesi
> >> (versus
> >> >> the two species of cuscuses).
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------
> >> >> *From:* Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:
> >> taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> on behalf of
> >> >> Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>
> >> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2018 8:54 AM
> >> >> *To:* Michael Heads; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:
> >> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] competition on Peleng (was: Jurassic
> >> >> primates???)
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Michael,
> >> >>
> >> >> Well, I was talking about monkeys in general, but even with
> >> >> macaques, I would think a male cuscus could take on a female macaque.
> >> When
> >> >> I talk about transoceanic dispersal of primates, I am usually
> thinking
> >> >> about of a group of pregnant females. No adult males required, as
> long
> >> as
> >> >> one or more of the females are pregnant with male offspring.
> >> >>
> >> >> Such a group of pregnant female monkeys landing on a small
> island
> >> >> like Peleng that has a well-established cuscus population could have
> a
> >> very
> >> >> rough time trying to get established. If not killed by male
> cuscuses,
> >> the
> >> >> cuscuses could drive the pregnant monkeys away from the best food
> >> sources
> >> >> (and they just die from malnutrition). Likewise, cuscuses haven't
> >> spread
> >> >> further east because monkeys were already well established there.
> >> >>
> >> >> Monkeys introduced by humans in New Guinea is a different
> story.
> >> >> They get established around human habitations and then spread out
> from
> >> >> there. And there is a lot more territory than on a small island like
> >> >> Peleng.
> >> >>
> >> >> --------------Ken
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ________________________________
> >> >> From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com
> >>
> >> >> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 2:09 AM
> >> >> To: Kenneth Kinman
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] competition on Peleng (was: Jurassic
> primates???)
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Ken,
> >> >>
> >> >> You say: 'Cuscuses are a very monkey-like marsupial', and suggest
> that
> >> >> they prevented monkeys from establishing east of Sulawesi.
> >> >>
> >> >> I know cuscuses and monkeys quite well (I lived for a long time in
> >> Africa
> >> >> and in New Guinea) and I wouldn'y describe them as very similar at
> all
> >> >> really - for a start, the monkeys concerned (macaques) are at least
> >> twice
> >> >> the size of a cuscus, much smarter and much more aggressive. But in
> any
> >> >> case, New Guinea is very rich in cuscuses and, as I mentioned,
> >> introduced
> >> >> monkeys have established there with no problems.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm sure you can think up an ad hoc reason for that particular
> >> >> phenomenon, but I prefer to look at the group, and all its
> biogeographic
> >> >> boundaries, overall. As Edgar Allan Poe said, 'the ingenious are
> always
> >> >> fanciful, and the truly imaginative never otherwise than analytic'.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com
> >> <mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>
> >> >> <mailto:kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Michael,
> >> >>
> >> >> Sulawesi and Peleng (being in the western part of "Wallacea")
> are
> >> >> an interesting battleground between the Asian and Australian
> faunas. In
> >> >> answer to your question, I suspect that monkeys could have
> encountered
> >> >> competitive exclusion on Peleng by a combination of not only the
> >> tarsiers
> >> >> there, but even more so by the marsupial species Strigocuscus
> >> pelengensis.
> >> >> This marsupial is also in the Sula Islands, which might also explain
> why
> >> >> monkeys didn't get into the Molucca Islands either (although a
> greater
> >> >> distance gap might also explain that).
> >> >>
> >> >> The other species of Strigocuscus does live on Sulawesi, but
> being
> >> >> called a dwarf cuscus, I assume it is smaller (and therefore less
> >> >> competitive and aggressive) than the species on Peleng. So I would
> say
> >> >> that studying the possible battle between the cuscus marsupials and
> >> monkeys
> >> >> in western Wallacea (especially on Peleng) could be far more fruitful
> >> than
> >> >> just tarsiers vs. monkeys. It could be a combination of both
> battles in
> >> >> this transition zone.
> >> >>
> >> >> The males of cuscuses in particular can be quite aggressive.
> And
> >> >> the cuscus on Peleng (presumably being larger than those on Sulawesi
> and
> >> >> being on a much smaller island) might be the main reason any
> attempted
> >> >> monkey dispersals would fail. Probably more so than tarsiers.
> Cuscuses
> >> >> are a very monkey-like marsupial.
> >> >>
> >> >> -----------------Ken Kinman
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ________________________________
> >> >> From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com
> >> ><mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>>>
> >> >> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2018 6:31 PM
> >> >> To: Kenneth Kinman
> >> >> Cc: Taxacom
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Jurassic primates???
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Ken,
> >> >>
> >> >> Mesozoic mammal fossils are very different from modern groups, and
> their
> >> >> affinities are often very controversial or simply admitted as
> unknown.
> >> If
> >> >> modern morphological work identified the phylogenetic position of
> groups
> >> >> such as cetaceans incorrectly - when the vast wealth of morphological
> >> >> information was available from complete specimens - isn't it very
> likely
> >> >> that they have misidentified many, fragmentary Mesozoic fossil
> groups in
> >> >> which the key features are not preserved?
> >> >>
> >> >> Did you see the lizard paper I mentioned (pushing back dates by 75
> >> m.y.)?
> >> >> Do you agree with my earlier statement that Goswami & Upchurch's
> >> reasoning
> >> >> is illogical (they wrote that fossils provide minimum ages, but then
> >> >> treated the fossil age of eutherians as a maximum age for primates)?
> >> Also,
> >> >> you haven't said which examples of vicariance you accept.
> >> >>
> >> >> Some other 'extraordinary' evidence for primates:
> >> >> Monkeys are diverse on Philippines/Sulawesi, but they reach their
> limit
> >> >> there and are entirely absent from islands to the east, such as
> Peleng,
> >> 20
> >> >> km off eastern Sulawesi, the Moluccas etc. If monkeys dispersed
> across
> >> the
> >> >> Atlantic long after it opened, why would a 20 km strait block their
> >> >> dispersal?
> >> >>
> >> >> Peleng is a small island, so you might think that large monkeys could
> >> not
> >> >> exist there. But macaques are famously 'weedy' and Peleng is the same
> >> size
> >> >> as Zanzibar (30 km off the African mainland), which has endemic
> monkeys.
> >> >>
> >> >> You might hypothesize that the tarsiers on Peleng prevented the
> monkeys
> >> >> from establishing there by competition, but monkeys and tarsiers
> overlap
> >> >> through most of the tarsiers' range.
> >> >>
> >> >> You might suggest that islands east of Philippines/Sulawesi are
> >> >> ecologically unsuitable for some other reason, but monkeys
> introduced to
> >> >> Palau and to western New Guinea have thrived and are now pests.
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course, the 'extraordinary' break between Sulawesi and Peleng
> could
> >> >> just be due to the vagaries of chance dispersal, but wouldn't it be
> >> useful
> >> >> to investigate other possibilities?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >> >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <
> >> mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >> >>
> >> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> >> Taxacom Info Page - mailman.nhm.ku.edu<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >> Mailing Lists
> >> >> <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
> >> >> mailman.nhm.ku.edu<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >> >> Taxacom is an e-mail list for biological systematics. Named and
> brought
> >> >> to life by Drs. Patricia Eckel and Richard Zander, Taxacom began its
> >> >> peripatetic existence on a cold and rainy day, January 12, 1987, as a
> >> Latin
> >> >> translation service, part of a dial-up Bulletin Board System at the
> >> Buffalo
> >> >> Museum of Science, Buffalo, New York.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> >> >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> >> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> >> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-owner@
> >> mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >> >>
> >> >> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> >> 1987-2018.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >> >
> >> > My books:
> >> >
> >> > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC,
> Boca
> >> > Raton FL. 2017. https://www.routledge.com/
> >> Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-
> >> > New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> >> > University Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<
> >> http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028><http://www.cambridge.org/
> >> 9781107041028>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> >> > Press, Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<
> >> http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968><http://www.
> >> ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University
> Press,
> >> > New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan). http://books.google.
> >> > co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC<http://co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC>
> >> > <http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=
> >> panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >>
> >> My books:
> >>
> >> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC,
> Boca
> >> Raton FL. 2017.
> >> https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-
> >> New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
> >>
> >>
> >> *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> University
> >> Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<http://www.
> >> cambridge.org/9781107041028><http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press,
> >> Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.
> >> ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968><http://www.
> >> ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University
> Press,
> >> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> >> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> >> <http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=
> >> panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<
> >> mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >>
> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-owner@
> mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >>
> >> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<
> >> mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >>
> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-owner@
> mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >>
> >> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >>
> >> My books:
> >>
> >>
> >> Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> >> Raton FL. 2017. https://www.routledge.com/
> Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-
> >> New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
> >>
> >>
> >> Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis. Cambridge University
> >> Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<http://www.
> >> cambridge.org/9781107041028>
> >>
> >>
> >> Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. University of California
> Press,
> >> Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.
> >> ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>
> >>
> >>
> >> Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life. Oxford University Press,
> >> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> http://books.google.co.nz/
> >> books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC<http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=
> Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=
> >> panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >>
> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >>
> >> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
--
Dunedin, New Zealand.
My books:
*Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
Raton FL. 2017.
https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
*Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
*Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
*Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
<http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
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