[Taxacom] fossil potato relative

[Péter Poczai]

Hi,

The Wilf et al. (2017) 'Physalis' fossil is indeed interesting, however,
I'm more than suspicious about it since this is the only (!) fossil record,
which stands out in Solanaceae pushing the dates back considerably for the
family. There are 50 other fossil
<https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-13-214>
records from Solanaceae, which are congruent with molecular studies
<https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3732/ajb.0900346> putting the
age of the family around 46-54 million years or a bit further. Recently
discovered Ipomoea fossils (58-55 MY) from Convolvulaceae by Srivastava et
al. (2018) <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29784796> also date the
split of the two sister families  Convolvulaceae/Solanaceae in Solanales before
the Eocene in the Gondwana-derived continents. The Wilf et al. (2017)
fossil also contradicts the 36 fossils used to calibrate the entire
angiosperm tree by Bell et al. (2010)
<https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3732/ajb.0900346>. If it would
be placed to that tree it would push back the age of all angiosperms. To me
this doesn't look convincing, I think it is assigned to a wrong group and
it should be place somewhere deeper in the Solanaceae tree than in
Physalis. This record is either something really big, in that case fossil
records of the same age will be found at some point, but currently it
stands out from all other fossils.

Cheers
Péter

2018-06-15 6:58 GMT+03:00 John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>:

> Hi Ken,
>
> Some disagreement here. Not surprising. See below.
>
> “I would not treat ALL molecular divergence estimates as minimums.  At
> least some clock estimates for the origin of primates apparently range from
> 80-120 million years ago”.
>
> But the different dates are each minimums. So you have a minimum of 80 to a
> minimum of 120.
>
> “If primates actually originated in the Paleocene (as many primate
> paleontologists maintain), then 80-120 million years ago are overestimates,
> not underestimated minimums.”
>
> Only if.
>
> “Molecular studies overseen by actual paleontologists probably tend to weed
> out inaccurate interpretations and therefore tend to be more accurate.  But
> some molecular results are probably too often done by researchers who have
> little or no paleontological experience.”
>
> One can only be as accurate about the fossil as the specialists say. And
> definitney agree with you that correct assignment of fossils can be
> problematic. I had experience of a case of a ‘monkey’ fossil in the
> Oligocene that had skull features of an ape. I and a primate specialist
> wrote a paper pointing that out, but the editor just gave it to the authors
> of the monkey interpretation and of course they condemned it.
>
> “ Probably best to regard molecular divergence estimates as just crude
> estimates that can be inaccurate in BOTH directions.”
>
> But as they are all miniums they cannot go in different directions. That’s
> the difference with tectonic calibrations which are indeed an approximation
> of an actual date.
>
> “In particular, I would tend to trust the perspective and extensive
> experience of researchers like Goswami and Upchurch over either
> molecularists or panbiogeographers who couldn't identify the fossil
> primates in question if their lives depended on it.”
>
> The whole point of science publication is the publication of accurate
> information by which fossils are assigned. If these cannot be given as much
> authority as the authors then science as a whole  is down the drain?
>
> “Too often it seems that we probably have something like the tail trying to
> wag the dog. “
>
> ???
>
> “Would you like it if Goswami and Upchurch were challenging your views on
> moth evolution? “
>
> Sorry? What planet are you on? That’s the whole point of science,
> beginning, middle, and end! At least on the planet I am on (sorry for the
> possibly misguided humor, but I am somewhat shocked that you could imply
> that I would object to being challenged by anyone on any of my work. This
> is supposed to be science after all).
>
> Cheers, John Grehan
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> >       I would not treat ALL molecular divergence estimates as minimums.
> At
> > least some clock estimates for the origin of primates apparently range
> from
> > 80-120 million years ago.  If primates actually originated in the
> Paleocene
> > (as many primate paleontologists maintain), then 80-120 million years ago
> > are overestimates, not underestimated minimums.  Molecular studies
> overseen
> > by actual paleontologists probably tend to weed out inaccurate
> > interpretations and therefore tend to be more accurate.  But some
> molecular
> > results are probably too often done by researchers who have little or no
> > paleontological experience.  Probably best to regard molecular divergence
> > estimates as just crude estimates that can be inaccurate in BOTH
> > directions.
> >
> >       In particular, I would tend to trust the perspective and extensive
> > experience of researchers like Goswami and Upchurch over either
> > molecularists or panbiogeographers who couldn't identify the fossil
> > primates in question if their lives depended on it.  Too often it seems
> > that we probably have something like the tail trying to wag the dog.
> Would
> > you like it if Goswami and Upchurch were challenging your views on moth
> > evolution?
> >
> >                                 --------------Ken
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of John
> > Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, June 14, 2018 8:17 PM
> > *To:* Scott Thomson
> > *Cc:* taxacom
> > *Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] fossil potato relative
> >
> > Which illustrates well why to treat all molecular divergence estimates as
> > minimums. That way at least one is not skewing history to fit and not so
> > critical if fossils are missed (which one would hope that a proper effort
> > was made in that regard).
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 9:03 PM, Scott Thomson <
> scott.thomson321 at gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have to say also I find the reliance on molecular dates in recent
> times
> > > disturbing. I have seen dates for groups of 23 mya, 35 mya, and 52 mya
> (3
> > > separate published papers) on a group that had an actual fossil, a good
> > > one, that was well dated to over 100 mya. I also find the assumptions
> of
> > > molecular dates to be rather daring ones and a bit disturbing when I
> > > realise that in many cases the fossils used to calibrate such tests are
> > > obtained by obtaining info from a quick perusal of Fossilworks. I take
> > > molecular dates with a grain of salt.
> > >
> > > Cheers Scott
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 8:54 PM, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Probably just being polite :)
> > > >
> > > > Here is what they said in their article. Note the first sentence in
> > > > particular.
> > > >
> > > > "Our results reinforce the emerging pattern
> > > > wherein numerous fossil plant taxa from Gondwanan
> > > > Patagonia and Antarctica are substantially
> > > > older than their corresponding molecular
> > > > dates (26, 27), demonstrating Gondwanan history
> > > > for groups conjectured to have post-Gondwanan
> > > > origins under entirely different paleogeographic
> > > > and paleoclimatic scenarios. Likewise, the derived
> > > > position of the newly identified fossil species
> > > > shows that the origins and diversification
> > > > of Solanaceae must have taken place at a much
> > > > earlier time than previously thought, considerably
> > > > before final Gondwanan breakup. Other
> > > > regions of Gondwana are also likely to have
> > > > played prominent roles in Solanaceae evolution,
> > > > especially Antarctica, which has produced
> > > > other important asterid fossils (27). Moreover,
> > > > the newly identified fossils directly help to
> > > > resolve temporal inconsistencies between the
> > > > evolutionary timing of Solanaceae and its herbivores
> > > > and mutualists (28). The large fossil
> > > > berry strongly implicates trophic associations
> > > > with animals, as seen in extant Physalis (29).
> > > > Today, Physalis inhabits South, Central, and
> > > > North America, and Mexico is its center of diversity
> > > > (2). Thus, the fossils establish a rare link
> > > > to extant New World floras from late-Gondwanan
> > > > Patagonian assemblages, whose living relatives
> > > > are mostly concentrated in the Old World tropics
> > > > and subtropics."
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 8:21 PM, David Campbell <
> pleuronaia at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "The fossils underpin the need for researchers to be careful"
> > > > >
> > > > > Why not conclude "the fossils show that the molecular clock dates
> > were
> > > > > wrong"?  Calibration, calculation, and interpretation of molecular
> > > clocks
> > > > > all have serious problems - why use them?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 1:52 PM, John Grehan <
> calabar.john at gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Not making any judgement about this one, but notice comment on
> > > > molecular
> > > > > > clocks at the end.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Grehan
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/
> > <http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/>
> > Plants and Animals | IFLScience
> > <http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/>
> > www.iflscience.com
> > Researchers find that the opah fish, which was the first fish found to be
> > fully warm-blooded, is act...
> >
> >
> > > 52millionyearold-fossil-
> > > > > > relative-to-the-potato-discovered-in-patagonia/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite becoming ubiquitous in almost every corner of the world,
> > > > > > surprisingly little is known about the deep evolutionary history
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > group of plants that gave rise to potatoes, tomatoes, and
> tobacco.
> > > > > > Now, researchers
> > > > > > have found
> > > > > > <http://phys.org/news/2017-01-south-american-fossil-
> > > > > > tomatillos-nightshades.html>
> > > > > >  just how far back these organisms go, with the discovery of a
> > fossil
> > > > > > relative that dates back to 52 million years ago, tens of
> millions
> > of
> > > > > years
> > > > > > older than previously thought.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The fossil belongs to a fragile berry of a plant known as a
> > > tomatillo,
> > > > or
> > > > > > ground cherry. They form fruit that is often surrounded by a
> thin,
> > > > papery
> > > > > > lantern, making it difficult for them to be fossilized
> > > > > > <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38511034>.
> Members
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > *Physalis* genus, they form a small branch of the nightshade
> > family,
> > > > > which
> > > > > > in turn includes many commercially important crops, from potatoes
> > > > > > and petunias to chillies and aubergines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The only fossil fruits ever found from this family of almost
> 2,000
> > > > > species
> > > > > > of plants, the two specimens were discovered in a fossilized
> > > rainforest
> > > > > > that once grew across Patagonia in South America. With a lack of
> > > > > available
> > > > > > fossils for this group of plants, researchers have had to rely on
> > > > > molecular
> > > > > > dates for when the nightshade plants first evolved, and had
> settled
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > figure of around 35 to 51 million years old, while the tomatillo
> > was
> > > > > > thought to be a relative newcomer at only 10 million years old.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This new discovery, however, completely changes this. The
> fossils,
> > > > dating
> > > > > > to 52 million years ago, show that the ground cherries are
> > actually a
> > > > > > relatively ancient branch of the nightshade family. “We
> > exhaustively
> > > > > > analyzed every detail of these fossils in comparison with all
> > > potential
> > > > > > living relatives and there is no question that they represent the
> > > > world's
> > > > > > first physalis fossils and the first fossil fruits of the
> > nightshade
> > > > > > family,” says
> > > > > > <http://phys.org/news/2017-01-south-american-fossil-
> > > > > > tomatillos-nightshades.html>
> > > > > >  Professor Peter Wilf, from Pennsylvania State University.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The fossils underpin the need for researchers to be careful when
> > > > deducing
> > > > > > an organism's evolutionary age solely from molecular clocks.
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> > > > 1987-2018.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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-- 
Dr Péter Poczai, PhD
Curator, CITES Scientific Authority
Botany Unit, Finnish Museum of Natural History
PO Box 7 University of Helsinki
FI-00014 Helsinki
Finland
Cell.:+358-41-752-5158
https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/en/person/poczai

"*Vive memor nostri rigidi servator honesti*"
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