[Taxacom] Oceanic dispersal (rafting) of mammals in particular
Kenneth Kinman
kinman at hotmail.com
Thu Jun 7 08:31:10 CDT 2018
John,
I do not object to vicariance (it explains many distribution patterns). I just think panbiogeographers tend to overdo vicariance, and you in particular have a tendency to start ranting when vicariance is challenged in some cases. So I probably won't be doing any more posts on the subject.
I will just close by saying that there seems to be a pattern of Africa to South America transoceanic dispersal which also includes caviomorph rodents, the hoatzin, and lots of different small reptiles (amphisbaenians, geckos, skinks, lizards, and blind snakes). So the New World monkeys would not be an isolated case. There are presumably lots of invertebrates and plants that also show this pattern, but I don't have the time to delve into that.
Vicariance does explain lots of Africa-South America relationships, but I still think it needs to be challenged in some cases. Anyway, if you want answers to all your questions about such hypotheses, you should stop calling the answers fairy tales. I was not surprised when Jason said: "None of this is a fairy tale, pseudoscience nor an attack on vicariance."
------------------Ken
________________________________
From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 10:04 PM
To: Kenneth Kinman
Cc: Michael Heads; Taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Oceanic dispersal (rafting) of mammals in particular
Ken,
What I interpret from your position is that when you think a distribution arose by chance dispersal then dispersal explains how they got there, and if dispersal occurred more than once and did not succeed we will have no evidence of it. And allopatry is due to competitive exclusion and sympatry is explained as the lack of competitive exclusion. All of this is fine as assertions of your personal belief and there is no falsifying that. What is at issue, is how you reach the dispersal conclusion in the first place, and for both NW primates and Nothofagus you have not explained that.
Jason makes the argument that if a vicariance event to 'too much' earlier than the oldest fossil then it cannot be believed. I don’t know if that is your position or if this is your reasoning for Nothofagus and Primates. Perhaps you would be so good as to make an explicit statement on that? It would go a long way to clearing up the otherwise confusing nature of your objections to vicariance. I realize that you do not publish on biogeographic method and reasoning, but it might be helpful in general to better understand how your views are connected to empirical sources since many others may share your particular perspective.
John Grehan
On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 9:18 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Well, competition between primate groups in Madagascar and America would have only been the deciding factor if there were later oceanic dispersals, as in Madagascar after lemurs had become so well-established in many different ecological niches. Either way (later dispersals or not), the lack of overlap is primarily due to the ocean barriers which are very difficult to cross. Without ocean barriers, overlap seems to be primarily due to noctural vs. diurnal.
It is somewhat similar in the case of Carnivora. In Madagascar you only have Family Eupleridae, and any subsequent dispersals of the related Family Herpestidae would have been prevented by competitive exclusion. Elsewhere, the Herpestidae can overlap geographically with Viverridae, because Herpestids are primarily terrestrial and diurnal, while Viverrids are primarily arboreal and nocturnal.
-------------Ken
________________________________
From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 7:28 PM
To: Kenneth Kinman
Cc: Taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus species
you explain the lack of overlap between the two primate clades in Madagascar and America by competition, but the overlap in Africa and Asia by a lack of competition. How does that work?
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 11:59 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com><mailto:kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>> wrote:
Michael,
(1) I've already explained the probable reason that Haplorhines are absent from Madagascar. Lemur ancestors got their first, radiated into all the available niches (which are quite varied), and competitive exclusion would have prevented any later haplorhine dispersals from becoming established (if there were any).
(2) The same is probably true for the absence of Strepsirrhines from America. Haplorhines just dispersed there first.
(3) And finally, the overlap of the two groups in much of Africa and Asia is probably because where they do overlap geographically, the Strepsirrhines are usually noctural and the Haplorhines are usually diurnal. The only times they might be active at the same time would be around dusk and dawn.
----------------Ken
P.S. As for the two butterfly sister groups, butterflies wouldn't be killing rival intruders coming into their territories. Primates on the other hand can be quite vicious if a rival competitor invades their territory. The same is true for Carnivora.
________________________________
From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com><mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 5:49 PM
To: Kenneth Kinman; Taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus species
How do you explain the example I mentioned - two butterfly sister groups with partial overlap? This is a very common type of pattern.
The monkeys (discussed at length in my 'Tropics' book and in Zool. Scripta. 39: 107. 2010) are another example of this:
Haplorhines (monkeys etc.): America, Africa, Asia (not Madagascar).
Strepsirrhines (lemurs etc.): Africa, Madagascar, Asia (not America).
Competitive exclusion doesn't explain the absences in America and Madagascar, as the two groups overlap extensively through Africa and Asia.
[https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/images/cleardot.gif]
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 10:25 AM, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com><mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>>> wrote:
How do you explain the example I mentioned - two butterfly sister groups with partial overlap? This is a very common type of pattern.
The monkeys (discussed at length in my 'Tropics' book and in Zool. Scripta. 39: 107. 2010) are another example of this:
Haplorhines (monkeys etc.): America, Africa, Asia (not Madagascar).
Strepsirrhines (lemurs etc.): Africa, Madagascar, Asia (not America).
Competitive exclusion doesn't explain the absences in America and Madagascar, as the two groups overlap extensively through Africa and Asia.
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com><mailto:kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>> wrote:
Competitive exclusion as it relates to oceanic dispersal does not have to be between groups that are that closely related. It perhaps explains why there are no monkeys in Madagascar. The lemur ancestor dispersed to Madagascar first. If any monkeys dispersed to Madagascar later, they would have found all their niches filled by well-established lemurs.
And likewise, lemurs may have dispersed back into mainland Africa, but if they did, they would have found their niches already filled by monkeys. So many monkeys that the lemur invaders would probably be killed by them.
So your question "why only once" is answered. It probably wasn't only once. There are probably lots of cases with multiple dispersals of a group, but only the first to disperse became well-established, and small numbers of later dispersers simply died very soon after arriving. They would have left no evidence of their dispersal.
---------------Ken
________________________________
From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com><mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 4:18 PM
To: Kenneth Kinman
Cc: Taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus species
the competitive exclusion idea only works if the clades are allopatric. In many cases two groups overlap in large parts of their range. For example, the Polyura 'eudamippus group' of butterflies: China to Sumatra and Borneo; P. 'pyrrhus group':Sumatra (not Borneo) to SE Australia and Fiji. The two groups overlap through Sumatra.
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 5:26 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com><mailto:kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>> wrote:
Hi Jason,
Excellent post. Regarding Michael's "why only once" argument, I would only add that I have provided another explanation in a post back in 2012. Namely: competitive exclusion, where the first dispersal is so successful that it fills all the niches for that animal or plant. If another dispersal happens millions of years later, they usually can't compete with the already well-established populations of its relative.
Here is a quote from the end of my posting on 01 January 2012:
"In view of John's criticisms, it should be remembered that dispersal ability certainly does not ensure that oceanic dispersals will be successful in most cases. Being able to disperse long distances is only the first step, but lack of suitable habitat, and more importantly competitive exclusion by other taxa already well-established, are obviously barriers to even good dispersers being automatically spread geographically. Such arguments against dispersalist hypotheses are therefore unconvincing (perhaps simple, but perhaps too often simplistic)."
Here's a weblink to that post: http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2012-January/121575.html
-------------Ken
________________________________
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu><mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>> on behalf of JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com<mailto:aphodiinaemate at gmail.com><mailto:aphodiinaemate at gmail.com<mailto:aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 11:23 AM
To: Taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus species
John,
analyzing biogeographic distributions is not very useful in the
absence of a time scale. Timing is often the only difference between
dispersal and vicariance, and all the arguments I can recall revolve
around the absolute or relative timing of splits of one lineage vs
another and/vs tectonics. That is why I think you focus so much on the
only proxy we have to complete the extremely patchy fossil record.
In the particular case of the Platyrrhini, the available evidence
suggests that the age for the group is c. 25-32mya
(https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msg172) and this is the most widely
accepted date (give or take but close to this range) using well
accepted molecular dating methods and fossils. You can quibble about
fossils and calibrations if the window was small enough, but the gap
is a chasm considering what you would need for the alternate scenario,
so we can only conclude, based on the available evidence at hand, that
the NW monkeys arrived there over sea and not as a result of
vicariance. Should fossils be found at a later date that push the
origin back sufficiently to consider the latter scenario then great,
but so far this is not the case. If they made it there swimming,
rafting or island-hopping (all three possible perfectably reasonable
dispersal mechanisms) is a matter of testing the ability of these
monkeys to survive each of these scenarios. None of this is a fairy
tale, pseudoscience nor an attack on vicariance.
This sort of dovetails with Michael´s often repeated question of "why
only once". My answer is because dispersal is hard, unplanned and the
chances of success slim to nil.
Jason
On 5 June 2018 at 01:00, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com<mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com><mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com<mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> Jason,
>
> I would suggest that the snag is not so much one side claims that molecular
> data is glorified phenetics or that dispersal is an unquantified, undefined
> amount that exists beyond the equally fuzzy "ecological dispersal". In the
> present discussion the issue has revolved around the age of extant
> Nothofagus and monkeys. In both cases the challenge presented to their being
> young was to ask for evidence. So far the response has been fossils, but
> without explaining how the present fossil record precludes Mesozoic origins
> for the taxa. There has further been the assumption that molecular dates are
> actual or absolute rather than minimal, but Ken says this is a red herring,
> I think because he was indicating that his position was not based on
> molecular divergence estimates (I may have that wrong in which Ken can
> correct).
>
> Arguments about molecular data and trees are phenetic or not is of no
> concern as far as biogeographic analysis is concerned - which can analyze
> the geographic distribution of any phylogeny.
>
> John Grehan
>
> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 4:42 PM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com<mailto:aphodiinaemate at gmail.com><mailto:aphodiinaemate at gmail.com<mailto:aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> What I meant is that the topic, as far as I see it, is dead in Taxacom
>> (bar a few brave souls) since no fruitful debate is possible. The
>> discourse invariably hits the same snags:
>>
>> One side claims that molecular data is glorified phenetics with no
>> contextual value if it contradicts a particular point of
>> view/hypothesis.
>> Dispersal is an unquantified, undefined amount that exists beyond the
>> equally fuzzy "ecological dispersal".
>> More fossils can always be found.
>>
>> As for the field, what I see is that people have long moved on,
>> pursuing a hybrid model where the facts, always scarce and patchy, may
>> support one model or another, and where novel data may refute previous
>> hypotheses. In the end some things have moved (either due to luck or
>> ability) and others haven´t, but in the end every case should assume
>> that there is no de facto explanation.
>>
>> Jason
>>
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Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028><http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028>
Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. University of California Press, Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968><http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>
Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life. Oxford University Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan). http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC<http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
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Dunedin, New Zealand.
My books:
Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca Raton FL. 2017. https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028><http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028>
Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. University of California Press, Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968><http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>
Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life. Oxford University Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan). http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC<http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
--
Dunedin, New Zealand.
My books:
Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca Raton FL. 2017. https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028><http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028>
Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. University of California Press, Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968><http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>
Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life. Oxford University Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan). http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC<http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
--
Dunedin, New Zealand.
My books:
Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca Raton FL. 2017. https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028><http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028>
Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. University of California Press, Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968><http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>
Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life. Oxford University Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan). http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC<http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
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