[Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus species

[John Grehan]

Jason,

Not sure what you mean by 'the topic has been dead for years'. Do you mean
that as far as you are concerned that there is no resolution of the
different points of view and that for you the topic is dead - of no further
interest to you? Certainly for biogeographers in general the topic is not
dead since biogeography continues to involve active participation of many
biologists. And over the last few years there have been some considerable
clarity over the nature of shared biogeographic patterns and their
geological correlation that are predictive (of other taxa), testable (in
the sense of corroboration and also potentially future discoveries), and
clear definitions that everyone can understand.

The principal problem with Ken's assertion about the floating Nothofagus
trees (with some upside down!) is that it is a scenario generated by
imagination rather than some kind of analysis, and based on an assertion
that the taxa involved evolved later than any geological separation, but
this is totally without evidence, there being no fossil or calibrated
molecular dates that preclude earlier origins. Same goes for his assertions
about monkeys. The papers he cites simply do what Ken does, assert a belief
system that monkeys rafted from one region to another, denying any
possibility of earlier origin even though there is no actual evidence to do
so. That is why I call such stories fairy tales. All science generates
stories (even in physics). Stories are our models of explanation, but to
have some integrity there must be a sequential connection to some evidence
as it is the nature of evidence that can come under scrutiny and analysis
and therefore be part of science. At least that is how I see it.

John Grehan

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:57 AM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com> wrote:

> You can´t win this Ken, that is why the topic has been dead for years.
> There is a clear problem with a lack of clear, predictive and testable
> hypotheses and definitions, without which advance is impossible.
>
> Best
>
> Jason
>
> On 3 June 2018 at 03:51, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >       The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some of us
> were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago.  Namely whether long-distance
> oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a significant factor in the geographic
> distribution of some species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> >        My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus trees
> (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could have held some of
> their fruit above the ocean surface and rafted from Tasmania to New
> Zealand, where one or more  new species could evolve (due to founder
> effect).  This would be a relatively short rafting event compared to the
> much longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South America to
> Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature; "Transport of Driftwood from
> South America to Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal of
> Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects, mosses, or other
> organisms have hitched a ride on such a Nothofagus raft?
> >                                    --------------Ken Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
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