[Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus species
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Sun Jun 3 19:55:29 CDT 2018
Hawaii is a classic example of what?
John Grehan
On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:53 PM, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
wrote:
> Evidence for long distance dispersal over vicariance must take into
> account entire biotas, not just selected taxa. Hawaii is the classic
> example.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 4/6/18, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> Nothofagus species
> To: "Barry OConnor" <bmoc at umich.edu>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Monday, 4 June, 2018, 12:49 PM
>
> Barry,
>
> An answer to your question requires a bit of a
> clarification about
> dispersal and its
> relationship to biogeographic origin of allopatric taxa
> (which is what most biogeographic controversies
> are about), although
> probably best to read
> discussion about that in a more structured account
> such as you will find in Heads' books .
> Dispersal as an ordinary ecological
> process
> is what we observe in real time. It results in survival of
> the
> species and may result in range
> expansion under particular circumstances.
> Differentiation of allopatric taxa requires
> isolation. If dispersal is so
> pervasive as
> to preclude isolation then there cannot be allopatric
> differentiation. This is the tangle that
> emerges when dispersal is used as
> the
> mechanism to explain biogeographic patterns of allopatry. A
> resolution
> of this paradox is to view
> dispersal as operative in establishing ancestral
> range rather than creating isolated entities.
> So seeing *Anolis* lizard on
> a raft of
> hurricane debris just off a Caribbean island is effectively
> no
> different from seeing any other organism
> moving or moved about. It has
> immediate
> ecological significance (in terms of metapopulation survival
> for
> example - again characterized in more
> detail by Heads) but its
> biogeographic role
> cannot be assumed.
>
> John
> Grehan
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018
> at 7:28 PM, Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm curious
> - what is *evidence* of chance dispersal other than, say,
> > seeing an *Anolis* lizard on a raft of
> hurricane debris just off a
> > Caribbean
> island? - Barry
> >
> > On
> Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 7:08 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> John,
> >>
> >>
> Well, you tossing out such red herrings will not
> dissuade me.
> >> Including the
> scientific one about frogs. The two primitive frog
> families
> >> originated way back in the
> Paleozoic when the world map was much different
> >> (Gondwanaland still largely intact).
> No long-distance dispersal
> >>
> necessary. Vicariance explains that case quite nicely.
> Nothofagus evolved
> >> much later
> (after the break up Gondwana), so I don't know why you
> tossed
> >> out that red herring.
> And comparing my hypothesis to UFOs or an Act of
> >> God could be interpreted as a bit
> insulting. And in your second post
> >> saying that "Chance dispersal
> continues to hold a very visceral appeal for
> >> evolutionary biologists", seems
> to indicate to me that many
> >>
> panbiogeographers tend to overstate the importance of
> vicariance and too
> >> often either
> ignore or attack evidence for chance dispersal when it is
> >> presented. I suspect that is what
> will happen if any evidence is found to
> >> support my hypothesis. One thing is
> certain---we won't find such evidence
> >> if we don't look for it.
> >>
> >>
> -------------Ken
> >>
> >> P.S. Your latest comment about
> "fairy tales" was a bit rude. I don't
> >> see why the explanation I put forward
> and question I asked of Bart should
> >>
> be characterized as fairy tales.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ________________________________
> >>
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2018 9:46 AM
> >> To: Kenneth Kinman
> >> Cc: Stephen Thorpe; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance
> oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> >>
> Nothofagus species
> >>
> >> Ken,
> >>
> >> Its not a testable notion in any real
> sense any more than attributing the
> >>
> connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd'
> distribution, but one that
> >> is very
> even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of
> imaginary
> >> events to toss plants and
> animals from one side of the Tasman to the other,
> >> or even just place them there by an
> Act of God, but there is no empirical
> >> imperative to do so for this any more
> than imagining a tsunami to toss
> >>
> frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
> >>
> >> John
> Grehan
> >>
> >> On
> Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com
> >> <mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >> Hi Stephen,
> >>
> >> But
> it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some
> organisms
> >> (mostly likely insects)
> have the same odd distribution in New Zealand and
> >> Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So
> I am hoping that some entomologist
> >>
> might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were
> more than one
> >> such organism, the
> more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> >>
> >>
> And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species
> groups with
> >> the same odd
> distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> >> subgenus Fuscospora). And those two
> dispersals could have happened at
> >>
> different times. So that already increases the probability
> of dispersal.
> >> Anyway, at least Fred
> understood what I was suggesting:
> >>
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
> >>
> >>
> >> -----------------Ken
> >>
> >>
> ________________________________
> >>
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz<mailto:
> >> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>>
> >> Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59
> PM
> >> To: Kenneth Kinman
> >> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance
> oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> >>
> Nothofagus species
> >>
> >> "Could certain insects, mosses,
> or other organisms have hitched a ride on
> >> such a Nothofagus raft?"
> >>
> >> Impossible to
> rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> >> require running freshwater. If it
> happened during summer, there could be a
> >> desiccating effect, but at other times
> the amount of freshwater dampness
> >>
> could remain at acceptable levels.
> >>
> >> The problem
> though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> >> entirely random and unpredictable, so
> it is hard to base much in the way of
> >> science on it.
> >>
> >> Stephen
> >>
> >>
> --------------------------------------------
> >> On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kin
> >> man at hotmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting)
> of
> >> Nothofagus species
> >> To: "Kenneth Kinman"
> <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>
> >> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>"
> <
> >> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> >>
> >> Received:
> Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> The recent thread got me thinking
> about a debate that some
> >> of us
> were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> >> whether long-distance oceanic
> dispersal (by rafting) was a
> >>
> significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> >> species of Nothofagus (sensu
> lato).
> >>
> >>
> My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged
> Nothofagus
> >> trees (due to tsunami
> or other massive flooding event) could
> >> have held some of their fruit above
> the ocean surface and
> >> rafted from
> Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> >> species could evolve (due to founder
> effect). This would
> >> be a
> relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> >> longer driftwood oceanic rafting
> that happened from South
> >> America
> to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> >> "Transport of Driftwood from
> South America to
> >> Tasmania".
> Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> >> of Nothofagus could have happened?
> Could certain insects,
> >> mosses, or
> other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> >> Nothofagus raft?
> >>
> >>
> --------------Ken Kinman
> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> >>
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> >> Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some
> Years, 1987-2018.
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >> Nurturing
> Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >> Nurturing
> Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --
> > -So many mites, so little time!
> > Barry M. OConnor
> >
> Professor & Curator
> > Department of
> Ecology & Evolutionary Biology
> >
> Research Museums Center
> > University of
> Michigan phone: 734-763-4354
> > 3600 Varsity Drive
> >
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3600+Varsity+Drive&entry=gmail&source=g>
> > fax:
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> e-mail: bmoc at umich.edu
> >
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> Nurturing Nuance while
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>
>
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