[Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus species
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Sun Jun 3 19:22:13 CDT 2018
What evidence??????????????
On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:21 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> You're right. I should have said the crown group of Nothofagus
> originated much later (after the break up of Gondwana). But i'm sure John
> will continue to attack the evidence that the crown group of Nothofagus
> originated well after vicariance would have been possible.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 3, 2018 7:10 PM
> *To:* Kenneth Kinman
> *Cc:* John Grehan; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> Nothofagus species
>
> Ken
>
> You say 'Nothofagus evolved much later (after the break up Gondwana)',
> but fossils are known back to the Cretaceous (early Campanian). All four
> extant subgenera have Cretaceous fossils. The actual age of the clades may
> be older than this, of course.
>
> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Well, you tossing out such red herrings will not dissuade me.
> Including the scientific one about frogs. The two primitive frog families
> originated way back in the Paleozoic when the world map was much different
> (Gondwanaland still largely intact). No long-distance dispersal
> necessary. Vicariance explains that case quite nicely. Nothofagus evolved
> much later (after the break up Gondwana), so I don't know why you tossed
> out that red herring. And comparing my hypothesis to UFOs or an Act of
> God could be interpreted as a bit insulting. And in your second post
> saying that "Chance dispersal continues to hold a very visceral appeal for
> evolutionary biologists", seems to indicate to me that many
> panbiogeographers tend to overstate the importance of vicariance and too
> often either ignore or attack evidence for chance dispersal when it is
> presented. I suspect that is what will happen if any evidence is found to
> support my hypothesis. One thing is certain---we won't find such evidence
> if we don't look for it.
>
> -------------Ken
>
> P.S. Your latest comment about "fairy tales" was a bit rude. I don't see
> why the explanation I put forward and question I asked of Bart should be
> characterized as fairy tales.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2018 9:46 AM
> To: Kenneth Kinman
> Cc: Stephen Thorpe; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> Nothofagus species
>
> Ken,
>
> Its not a testable notion in any real sense any more than attributing the
> connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one that
> is very even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of imaginary
> events to toss plants and animals from one side of the Tasman to the other,
> or even just place them there by an Act of God, but there is no empirical
> imperative to do so for this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
>
> John Grehan
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:
> kinman at hotmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
>
> But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some organisms
> (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand and
> Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some entomologist
> might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more than one
> such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
>
> And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups with
> the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened at
> different times. So that already increases the probability of dispersal.
> Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
>
>
> -----------------Ken
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz<mailto:
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>>
> Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> To: Kenneth Kinman
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> Nothofagus species
>
> "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on
> such a Nothofagus raft?"
>
> Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly require
> running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater dampness
> could remain at acceptable levels.
>
> The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the way of
> science on it.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kin
> man at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> Nothofagus species
> To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>" <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
>
> Hi all,
>
> The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
>
> My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> Nothofagus raft?
>
> --------------Ken Kinman
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
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> Nurturing Nuance while
> Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
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> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
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> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017. https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-
> New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
>
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> University Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press, Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan). http://books.google.
> co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> <http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
>
>
>
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