[Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus species
Frederick W. Schueler
bckcdb at istar.ca
Sun Jun 3 18:52:47 CDT 2018
On 03/06/2018 7:28 PM, Barry OConnor wrote:
> I'm curious - what is *evidence* of chance dispersal other than, say,
> seeing an *Anolis* lizard on a raft of hurricane debris just off a
> Caribbean island?
* obviously, nobody is going to be there in the Pliocene to welcome
whatever washed up then. It would seem, on a priori grounds, that the
evidence of vicariance is whole biotas that track together in accordance
with a supported geological scenario, while evidence of "chance"
dispersal is sets of related (sister) species that don't comprise a
whole biota, don't match a geological hypothesis, and have a plausible
mechanism for crossing the barrier.
Quantum physics does the 'chance' thing - why can't biogeography?
fred.
==================================================
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 7:08 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Well, you tossing out such red herrings will not dissuade me.
>> Including the scientific one about frogs. The two primitive frog families
>> originated way back in the Paleozoic when the world map was much different
>> (Gondwanaland still largely intact). No long-distance dispersal
>> necessary. Vicariance explains that case quite nicely. Nothofagus evolved
>> much later (after the break up Gondwana), so I don't know why you tossed
>> out that red herring. And comparing my hypothesis to UFOs or an Act of
>> God could be interpreted as a bit insulting. And in your second post
>> saying that "Chance dispersal continues to hold a very visceral appeal for
>> evolutionary biologists", seems to indicate to me that many
>> panbiogeographers tend to overstate the importance of vicariance and too
>> often either ignore or attack evidence for chance dispersal when it is
>> presented. I suspect that is what will happen if any evidence is found to
>> support my hypothesis. One thing is certain---we won't find such evidence
>> if we don't look for it.
>>
>> -------------Ken
>>
>> P.S. Your latest comment about "fairy tales" was a bit rude. I don't see
>> why the explanation I put forward and question I asked of Bart should be
>> characterized as fairy tales.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2018 9:46 AM
>> To: Kenneth Kinman
>> Cc: Stephen Thorpe; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>> Nothofagus species
>>
>> Ken,
>>
>> Its not a testable notion in any real sense any more than attributing the
>> connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one that
>> is very even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of imaginary
>> events to toss plants and animals from one side of the Tasman to the other,
>> or even just place them there by an Act of God, but there is no empirical
>> imperative to do so for this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
>> frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
>>
>> John Grehan
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:
>> kinman at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi Stephen,
>>
>> But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some organisms
>> (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand and
>> Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some entomologist
>> might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more than one
>> such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
>>
>> And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups with
>> the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
>> subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened at
>> different times. So that already increases the probability of dispersal.
>> Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
>>
>>
>> -----------------Ken
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz<mailto:
>> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
>> To: Kenneth Kinman
>> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>> Nothofagus species
>>
>> "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on
>> such a Nothofagus raft?"
>>
>> Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly require
>> running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
>> desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater dampness
>> could remain at acceptable levels.
>>
>> The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
>> entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the way of
>> science on it.
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kin
>> man at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>> Nothofagus species
>> To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>
>> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>" <
>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
>> Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
>> of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
>> whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
>> significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
>> species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
>>
>> My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
>> trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
>> have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
>> rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
>> species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
>> be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
>> longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
>> America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
>> "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
>> Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
>> of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
>> mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
>> Nothofagus raft?
>>
>> --------------Ken Kinman
>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
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>
>
>
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