[Taxacom] Long distance oceanic dispersal
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Sun Jun 3 13:41:47 CDT 2018
I would agree, and yet there are many biogeographers, including many on
Hawaii, that pose similar kinds of assertions for the origin of Hawaiian
endemics.
John Grehan
On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Les Watling <watling at hawaii.edu> wrote:
> I would suggest that it is one thing for marine species to raft across the
> ocean, and for shallow or beach wrack species that might be reasonably
> possible, but for terrestrial species to make it.... well that is another
> thing unless there is positive evidence for salt water tolerance, as in the
> case of coconuts.
>
> Having spent some time in storms in the southern ocean, I would think there
> is no way, even for 20,000 instances of drift initiated by a tsunami, that
> a plant or animal with low tolerance to salt water could make it in
> sufficient form to colonize some other shore. Usually these storms at the
> southern end of the earth produce swells and spilling waves of 5-20 m
> height, depending on location, so anything in the water is going to get
> tumbled. Put a fruit of Nothofagus in sea water for a couple of months and
> then let us know whether it will germinate. Same with mites, mosses, and
> the like.
>
> For Nothofagus, I suspect this is the least likeliest explanation for their
> distribution. Drifting land masses keeps things out of the salt!
>
> Best,
>
> Les Watling
> Professor, Dept. of Biology
> 216 Edmondson Hall
> University of Hawaii at Manoa
> Honolulu, HI 96822
> Ph. 808-956-8621
> Cell: 808-772-9563
> e-mail: watling at hawaii.edu
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 1:00 PM, <taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > When responding to a message, please do not copy the entire digest into
> > your reply.
> > ____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Please ignore test POST (bayshark at exemail.com.au)
> > 2. Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Kenneth Kinman)
> > 3. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Stephen Thorpe)
> > 4. Workplace gender quotas in science and elsewhere (Stephen Thorpe)
> > 5. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Michael Heads)
> > 6. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Kenneth Kinman)
> > 7. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (John Grehan)
> > 8. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Barry OConnor)
> > 9. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (John Grehan)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 09:18:47 +1000
> > From: <bayshark at exemail.com.au>
> > To: "'taxacom'" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Please ignore test POST
> > Message-ID: <9D276EBC40DE4F4FBEC791FE607A04AC at RicardoPC>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Because I am receiving recently my post twice in a few days
> >
> > Vratislav
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 01:51:08 +0000
> > From: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CY4PR11MB14801083F5BA1FC595E60745C1610 at CY4PR11MB1480.
> > namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hi all,
> > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some of us
> > were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely whether long-distance
> > oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a significant factor in the geographic
> > distribution of some species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus trees
> > (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could have held some of
> > their fruit above the ocean surface and rafted from Tasmania to New
> > Zealand, where one or more new species could evolve (due to founder
> > effect). This would be a relatively short rafting event compared to the
> > much longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South America to
> > Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature; "Transport of Driftwood
> from
> > South America to Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> of
> > Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects, mosses, or other
> > organisms have hitched a ride on such a Nothofagus raft?
> > --------------Ken Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 01:59:31 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID: <967563807.8135822.1527991171054 at mail.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on
> > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> >
> > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> require
> > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater dampness
> > could remain at acceptable levels.
> >
> > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the way
> of
> > science on it.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> >
> > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > Nothofagus raft?
> >
> > --------------Ken Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send
> > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while
> > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 02:22:47 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > To: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Workplace gender quotas in science and elsewhere
> > Message-ID: <1779694158.8141044.1527992567102 at mail.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > This subject is perhaps a bit off-topic for Taxacom, but workplace gender
> > quotas may be applied to taxonomic jobs as much as any other, so I
> thought
> > it might be worth highlighting a most ridiculous spin being put on
> research
> > to defend workplace gender quotas against the objection they are
> > unmeritocratic (=candidates of high merit may miss out just because they
> > are yet another male).
> >
> > https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/workplace-
> > gender-quotas-incompetence-efficiency-business-
> > organisations-london-school-economics-lse-a7797061.html
> >
> > The argument seems to be that far from being unmeritocratic, workplace
> > gender quotas actually weed out men of mediocre/low merit (competence),
> so
> > it is all good!
> >
> > Quite apart from the fact that "Those with higher incomes were deemed
> more
> > competent", which is itself laughable for fairly obvious (I hope!)
> reasons,
> > the real killer in this argument is this, I suggest:
> >
> > With a quota in place, what are you going to do? (A) Replace the most
> > competent men with women; or (B) Replace the least competent men with
> > women? It is a bit of a no-brainer (to say the least!) to opt for (B), so
> > of course workplace gender quotas weed out men of mediocre/low
> competence!
> >
> > Given that "Those with higher incomes were deemed more competent" and
> > higher income=more senior role, all that is happening is that women are
> > being selected for the less senior roles in order to keep the more senior
> > roles male dominated!
> >
> > Although this doesn't paint a good picture of workplace sexism, my main
> > point is that the study actually does nothing to counter the objection
> that
> > workplace gender quotas are unmeritocratic, even though that is how it is
> > being spun! Sure, if you define competence in terms of income and somehow
> > link it to the concept of "merit", men of lower competence ("merit") are
> > being "weeded out", but this does nothing to counter the objection that
> men
> > who would otherwise be hired on merit miss out simply due to the fact
> that
> > they are men, and I would call that gender discrimination against men!
> > Worse, it is quite consistent with a less competent woman being hired
> > instead of a more competent man, however you define competency, if the
> male
> > quota is already filled.
> >
> > I am quite alarmed by the subversive and misleading nature of some
> > so-called "research" in this area!
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 17:20:34 +1200
> > From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> > To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAF_uauDCQL0mfbHP0Mw39ep4N27V2dZMRecMBrifWvYvDGza+Q at mail.gmail.
> > com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > even one-in-a-thousand-years tsunamis would have occurred 20 000 times in
> > the Neogene alone, so you then have to explain why dispersal occurred
> only
> > once. And why the same pattern has occurred in many other groups. Of
> > course, that isn't a problem with chance dispersal, which can explain any
> > distribution at all.
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some of us
> > > were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely whether
> long-distance
> > > oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a significant factor in the
> geographic
> > > distribution of some species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus trees
> > > (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could have held some
> of
> > > their fruit above the ocean surface and rafted from Tasmania to New
> > > Zealand, where one or more new species could evolve (due to founder
> > > effect). This would be a relatively short rafting event compared to
> the
> > > much longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South America
> to
> > > Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature; "Transport of Driftwood
> > from
> > > South America to Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > of
> > > Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects, mosses, or other
> > > organisms have hitched a ride on such a Nothofagus raft?
> > > --------------Ken Kinman
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My books:
> >
> > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> > Raton FL. 2017.
> > https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-
> > New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
> >
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> University
> > Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> >
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press,
> > Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
> >
> >
> > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> > New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> > http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> > <http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=
> > panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 12:38:12 +0000
> > From: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CY4PR11MB1480E18ABE5835F633E440D6C1600 at CY4PR11MB1480.
> > namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hi Stephen,
> >
> > But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some organisms
> > (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand and
> > Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some entomologist
> > might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more than one
> > such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> >
> > And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups with
> > the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> > subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened at
> > different times. So that already increases the probability of dispersal.
> > Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
> >
> >
> > -----------------Ken
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> >
> > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on
> > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> >
> > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> require
> > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater dampness
> > could remain at acceptable levels.
> >
> > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the way
> of
> > science on it.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> >
> > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > Nothofagus raft?
> >
> > --------------Ken Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send
> > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while
> > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 10:46:22 -0400
> > From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CADN0ud3yeaD2==LcQApvDpFNQqZ7vJUfq05D9u-rKNjpwVvwhg at mail.
> > gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> > Its not a testable notion in any real sense any more than attributing the
> > connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one
> that
> > is very even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of imaginary
> > events to toss plants and animals from one side of the Tasman to the
> other,
> > or even just place them there by an Act of God, but there is no empirical
> > imperative to do so for this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> > frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Stephen,
> > >
> > > But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some
> organisms
> > > (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand
> and
> > > Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some
> entomologist
> > > might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more than
> one
> > > such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> > >
> > > And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups
> with
> > > the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> > > subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened at
> > > different times. So that already increases the probability of
> dispersal.
> > > Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------Ken
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> > > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > Nothofagus species
> > >
> > > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride
> on
> > > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> > >
> > > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> > require
> > > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater
> dampness
> > > could remain at acceptable levels.
> > >
> > > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the
> way
> > of
> > > science on it.
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > Nothofagus species
> > > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > >
> > > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > > Nothofagus raft?
> > >
> > > --------------Ken Kinman
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Send
> > > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while
> > > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:02:15 -0400
> > From: Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu>
> > To: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAC+ZtPdcUBJAkPUV70J0gz3aHzDo91=KxSWs1PmZQEzRzHWVdg at mail.gmail.
> > com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > A mite originally described from beach wrack in the Russian far east
> turned
> > up in beach wrack on the Oregon coast after the big Japanese
> > earthquake/tsunami. Could have always been there, just never discovered
> > until later. Given all the Asian stuff found on beaches in the Pacific
> > northwest after the tsunami, either way it's a possibility that its
> > distribution was affected by tsunamis at some point. As John points out,
> > however, neither scenario is testable without historical data, which is
> > absent.
> > All the best! - Barry
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 10:46 AM, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Ken,
> > >
> > > Its not a testable notion in any real sense any more than attributing
> the
> > > connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one
> > that
> > > is very even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of imaginary
> > > events to toss plants and animals from one side of the Tasman to the
> > other,
> > > or even just place them there by an Act of God, but there is no
> empirical
> > > imperative to do so for this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> > > frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
> > >
> > > John Grehan
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Stephen,
> > > >
> > > > But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some
> > organisms
> > > > (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand
> > and
> > > > Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some
> > entomologist
> > > > might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more than
> > one
> > > > such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> > > >
> > > > And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups
> > with
> > > > the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other
> in
> > > > subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened
> at
> > > > different times. So that already increases the probability of
> > dispersal.
> > > > Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-
> December/108388.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----------------Ken
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> > > > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > > > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > > Nothofagus species
> > > >
> > > > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a
> ride
> > on
> > > > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> > > >
> > > > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> > > require
> > > > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > > > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater
> > dampness
> > > > could remain at acceptable levels.
> > > >
> > > > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > > > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the
> > way
> > > of
> > > > science on it.
> > > >
> > > > Stephen
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > > Nothofagus species
> > > > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > > > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > > > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > > > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > > > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > > > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > > >
> > > > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > > > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > > > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > > > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > > > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > > > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > > > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > > > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > > > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > > > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > > > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > > > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > > > Nothofagus raft?
> > > >
> > > > --------------Ken Kinman
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-
> December/108385.html
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > > Send
> > > > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > > > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >
> > > > Nurturing Nuance while
> > > > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >
> > > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> > 1987-2018.
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -So many mites, so little time!
> > Barry M. OConnor
> > Professor & Curator
> > Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology
> > Research Museums Center
> > University of Michigan phone: 734-763-4354
> > 3600 Varsity Drive fax: 734-763-4080
> > Ann Arbor, MI 48108-2228 e-mail: bmoc at umich.edu
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:17:29 -0400
> > From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > To: Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CADN0ud30i3CatTHDK5s4K1qS=VMZuyEg=iWST2NPO-4jCzdD0Q@
> > mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > There is not doubt that some organism drift around, either frequently or
> > infrequently. But its a big leap to just say this is how endemic taxa
> arise
> > in different locations. Bit like when Darwin found that snails (or
> seeds, I
> > forget which) could survive for considerable time in seawater and
> therefore
> > they did and this was sufficient to explain disjunctive origins. Chance
> > dispersal has been widely promoted under molecular clock theory but its a
> > chimera resulting from the misrepresentation of molecular dating. Chance
> > dispersal continues to hold a very visceral appeal for evolutionary
> > biologists and perhaps this is not so surprising as we see plants (or
> their
> > propagules) and animals drifting about every day. But its the kind of
> > reasoning that gives a bad name to the science of evolution.
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > A mite originally described from beach wrack in the Russian far east
> > > turned up in beach wrack on the Oregon coast after the big Japanese
> > > earthquake/tsunami. Could have always been there, just never discovered
> > > until later. Given all the Asian stuff found on beaches in the Pacific
> > > northwest after the tsunami, either way it's a possibility that its
> > > distribution was affected by tsunamis at some point. As John points
> out,
> > > however, neither scenario is testable without historical data, which is
> > > absent.
> > > All the best! - Barry
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 10:46 AM, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Ken,
> > >>
> > >> Its not a testable notion in any real sense any more than attributing
> > the
> > >> connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one
> > >> that
> > >> is very even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of
> imaginary
> > >> events to toss plants and animals from one side of the Tasman to the
> > >> other,
> > >> or even just place them there by an Act of God, but there is no
> > empirical
> > >> imperative to do so for this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> > >> frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
> > >>
> > >> John Grehan
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi Stephen,
> > >> >
> > >> > But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some
> > organisms
> > >> > (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New
> Zealand
> > >> and
> > >> > Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some
> > entomologist
> > >> > might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more
> than
> > >> one
> > >> > such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> > >> >
> > >> > And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups
> > >> with
> > >> > the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other
> in
> > >> > subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened
> at
> > >> > different times. So that already increases the probability of
> > >> dispersal.
> > >> > Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-
> December/108388.html
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > -----------------Ken
> > >> >
> > >> > ________________________________
> > >> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> > >> > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > >> > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > >> > Nothofagus species
> > >> >
> > >> > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a
> ride
> > >> on
> > >> > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> > >> >
> > >> > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> > >> require
> > >> > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > >> > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater
> > dampness
> > >> > could remain at acceptable levels.
> > >> >
> > >> > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > >> > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the
> > >> way of
> > >> > science on it.
> > >> >
> > >> > Stephen
> > >> >
> > >> > --------------------------------------------
> > >> > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > >> > Nothofagus species
> > >> > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > >> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > >> > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> > >> >
> > >> > Hi all,
> > >> >
> > >> > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > >> > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > >> > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > >> > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > >> > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > >> >
> > >> > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > >> > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > >> > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > >> > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > >> > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > >> > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > >> > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > >> > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > >> > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > >> > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > >> > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > >> > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > >> > Nothofagus raft?
> > >> >
> > >> > --------------Ken Kinman
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-
> > December/108385.html
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >> > Send
> > >> > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> >
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > >> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > >> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> >
> > >> > Nurturing Nuance while
> > >> > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> >
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > >> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > >> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> >
> > >> > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> > >> 1987-2018.
> > >> >
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Taxacom Mailing List
> > >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >>
> > >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > >> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >>
> > >> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> > 1987-2018.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > -So many mites, so little time!
> > > Barry M. OConnor
> > > Professor & Curator
> > > Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology
> > > Research Museums Center
> > > University of Michigan phone: 734-763-4354
> > > 3600 Varsity Drive
> > > <https://maps.google.com/?q=3600+Varsity+Drive&entry=gmail&source=g>
> > > fax: 734-763-4080
> > > Ann Arbor, MI 48108-2228 e-mail: bmoc at umich.edu
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 146, Issue 3
> > ***************************************
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
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>
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
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> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
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>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
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