[Taxacom] Hijacking paraphyletic taxon names (but thankfully not Crustacea)

Sat Feb 10 15:09:54 CST 2018

Thanks Ken,

As with 'great apes' some paraphyletic names are useful, but just not a
formal taxa.

Which crustacea were grouped closer to insects?Curious as I haven't kept up
with that.

Names are a matter of personal choice. There's no authoritative body so no
doubt there will always be disagreement over such matters and some choices
will be popular than others for whatever reason. There is no absolute right
or wrong about that.

John

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
>       That's right.  I actually find a lot of cladistic analyses very
> useful.  But I don't like throwing the baby out with the bathwater (some of
> those paraphyletic taxa are quite useful).  And I certainly don't like
> strict cladists hijacking the names of those paraphyletic taxa (I call that
> a mis-application of names).
>
>               ----------Ken Kinman, a cladist (but not a strict cladist)
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 10, 2018 2:43 PM
> *To:* Kenneth Kinman
> *Cc:* taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; Stephen Thorpe
> *Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] Hijacking paraphyletic taxon names (but
> thankfully not Crustacea)
>
> So cladistics is not the problem after all. Just an objection for the
> application of names.
>
> Am I correct to understand that some crustaceans that were previously
> grouped under 'Crustacea' have turned out to be more closely related to
> insects than other crustacea?
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>        We probably wouldn't be having a debate about paraphyletic taxa if
> the strict cladists hadn't hijacked the names of major paraphyletic taxa,
> especially those with large exgroups.  Instead of creating a new clade
> name, Sarcopterygii was hijacked and a huge exgroup (all the tetrapods)
> shoved into it.  It completely changed the meaning of Sarcopterygii.  Same
> with Reptilia and Dinosauria (shoving all the birds into them).  If they
> wanted a clade uniting dinosaurs and birds, they should have come up with a
> new name instead of greatly changing the meaning of taxon Dinosauria.
>
>
>        Luckily this was done in one major case.  The clade name
> Pancrustacea was created for crustaceans and their hexapod descendants.
> The name Crustacea wasn't hijacked.  Thank goodness.
>
>              ---------------Ken
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 10:53 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; Kenneth Kinman
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Insects are crustacean descendants vs. "insects ARE
> crustaceans"
>
> Ken,
> I think the cladist mind thinks that a taxon includes all its decendants,
> so whatever name applies to the taxon also applies to all its decendants.
> So, tetrapods are Sarcopterygia/sarcopterygians. Sort of makes sense.
> Tetrapods are also animals, eukaryotes, etc.
> Stephen
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 10/2/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Subject: [Taxacom] Insects are crustacean descendants vs. "insects ARE
> crustaceans"
>  To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>  Received: Saturday, 10 February, 2018, 4:10 PM
>
>  Hi all,
>
>  The present discussion about paraphyly reminds me of strict
>  cladists insisting that "birds ARE dinosaurs",
>  rather than "birds are dinosaur descendants".  I
>  suppose they might think that they are preparing the next
>  generation of young dinosaur lovers to support strict
>  cladists and perhaps even become future strict cladists.
>
>        But not all dinosaur
>  researchers think that this is a good idea.  In his paper
>  Origin of Birds: The Final Solution? (American Zoologist:
>  Vol. 40, No. 4, pp. 504-512), Peter Dodson says: "For
>  example, the word dinosaur was not previously problematic -
>  it was universally understood. Within cladistics it has now
>  been redefined to include birds ... and then a new and
>  cumbersome phrase, non-avian dinosaur, has been substituted.
>  This is not progress; this is semantic obfuscation not
>  enlightened communication."
>
>         I agree that it is semantic
>  obfuscation.  Saying "Birds are dinosaurs"
>  (instead of birds are dinosaur descendants) is  like saying
>  "Tetrapods are sarcopterygian fish" (instead of
>  Tetrapods are descendants of sarcopterygian fish).  Or how
>  about "Insects are crustaceans", rather than
>  "Insects are crustacean descendants."
>
>         In all these cases,
>  you would be trying to force a well-known exgroup taxon back
>  into its mother taxon.  In other words, it is a war against
>  paraphyletic taxa which would become glaringly absurd if
>  applied across the board.  How about "Vertebrates are
>  invertebrates" instead of "Vertebrates are
>  invertebrate descendants"?
>
>            -----------------Ken Kinman
>
>  -----------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Taxacom Mailing List
>  Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
>  http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> Taxacom Info Page - mailman.nhm.ku.edu Mailing Lists<
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
> mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Taxacom is an e-mail list for biological systematics. Named and brought to
> life by Drs. Richard Zander and Patricia Eckel, Taxacom began its
> peripatetic existence on ...
>
>
>
>  The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
>  searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> [http://taxacom.markmail.org/images/hdi_office.gif]<http://t
> axacom.markmail.org/>
>
> Taxacom Home - MarkMail - Community libraries<http://taxacom.markmail.org/
> >
> taxacom.markmail.org
> MarkMail is developed and hosted by MarkLogic Corporation. MarkMail is a
> free service for searching mailing list archives, with huge advantages over
> traditional ...
>
>
>
>
>  Send Taxacom mailing list
>  submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>  To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
>  http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> Taxacom Info Page - mailman.nhm.ku.edu Mailing Lists<
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
> mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Taxacom is an e-mail list for biological systematics. Named and brought to
> life by Drs. Richard Zander and Patricia Eckel, Taxacom began its
> peripatetic existence on ...
>
>
>
>  You can reach the person managing the list at:
>  taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
>  Nurturing Nuance while
>  Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
>
>