[Taxacom] Type localities
Stephen Thorpe
stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sat Dec 29 18:29:34 CST 2018
Les,
"but now the hair is split so finely it has no meaning"
Actually, no. Localities associated with the original description of a species (and there may be several different ones) may give clues to the intended species named, but one needs another, more robust way to determine which species a name refers to, because of the complications I have already alluded to. Mere "clues" are not good enough to elevate type localities to the status of importance that many taxonomists seem to think they have!
"Conservation NGOs are very interested in and use type locality information all the time because it has a level of importance that other locality information might not have"
No, it is an illusion! A type locality only has relevance to naming according to the current codes of nomenclature. The codes could change in the future in such a way to make type localities superfluous, and yet nothing of any importance would be lost!
Cheers, Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 30/12/18, Les Watling <watling at hawaii.edu> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type localities
To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Cc: "Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018, 12:28 PM
Stephen, you write:"The
situation you describe has nothing to do with type
localities per se, just localities for the species which
happen to be localities for the
types."Well,
yes, I guess so.... but now the hair is split so finely it
has no meaning. If that place was where Verrill said the
specimen came from, and the species is being described as
new.... it would seem to me, and maybe to a lot of other
people, that even though type localities were not designated
in 1883 (and neither were holotypes, I might add), one could
take that place as the "type locality." The
species was never found anywhere else, so what other
conclusion should I draw....
Here is
Article 76 from the Code:
Article 76. Type
locality.
76.1. Definition. The type
locality of a nominal species-group taxon is the
geographical (and, where relevant, stratigraphical) place of
capture, collection or observation of the name-bearing type;
if there are syntypes and no lectotype has been designated,
the type locality encompasses the localities of all of them
[Art.
73.2.3].I
think this fits the situation I describe pretty well....
As for
Verrill's description, his mistake was a simple one, but
otherwise doesn't make the species all that difficult to
identify. Without going into too much detail, he wrote that
the body of the polyp was covered in scales (a particular
type of sclerite, the latter being used to differentiate
species), but in fact the scales were only in the tentacles.
When we looked at specimens Verrill had identified and
placed at YPM we found no scales on the body, just as in our
new specimen. Unfortunately, the idea that the body of the
polyp was covered in scales was picked up by later workers
and used to add other species to the genus. Also, since the
original species was unbranched, then all unbranched species
were considered to belong to this genus as well. I am not
going to go into it all here, but from our genetic data we
know that is wrong as well. We are in the process of
cleaning a lot of this up.
Lastly,
yes it is quite possible that type localities can be vague,
and even incorrect. I did not say otherwise. I merely point
out that type localities can be very useful, as in the case
I noted, but also to save rare species. Conservation NGOs
are very interested in and use type locality information all
the time because it has a level of importance that other
locality information might not have. Not saying other
locality information is not important, but if you
haven't dealt with politicians when trying to save
something, then you won't understand my
point.
Les
Les
WatlingProfessor, Dept. of Biology216
Edmondson HallUniversity of Hawaii at
ManoaHonolulu, HI 96822Ph.
808-956-8621Cell: 808-772-9563e-mail:
watling at hawaii.edu
On Sat, Dec
29, 2018 at 10:51 AM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
wrote:
Les,
The situation you describe has nothing to do with type
localities per se, just localities for the species which
happen to be localities for the types. How do you know that
the octocoral you found really is Verrill's species,
particularly if there are disparities, as you suggest and
attribute to inaccuracies by Verrill? Perhaps Verrill got it
right and you have found something else??
"They can be portrayed as sacrosanct, especially to
politicians, and thus helpful in preserving habitat"
True, but misrepresenting a situation in order to achieve
something worthwhile is "dodgy", to say the least!
"Any means to an end ..."
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 30/12/18, Les Watling <watling at hawaii.edu>
wrote:
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type localities
To: "Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018, 9:41 AM
Dear all,
I agree completely with Elena
Kupriyanova's last note to this list (I get
the daily digest so its tough to sort
one message out from the other). I
also agree especially with her last
point about how useful the type
locality can be. Here is why:
In 1883 A.E. Verrill described a small
deep-sea octocoral, Lepidisis
caryophyllia. He had three specimens
that he attributed to this species,
two were from off the US east coast in
600 to 1200 fathoms of water,
roughly. He gave lat. and long.
coordinates that were obtained by the fish
captains who had brought the specimens
up on their lines. Obviously, these
locations need to be treated with some
caution since all navigation in
those days were determined by sextant
and timepiece. But the two localities
cover many degrees of latitude,
extending from off New Jersey to Georges
Bank. So, we had figured we had a
reasonable chance of recovering a new
specimen of this species.
Verrill's specimens were deposited in
the MCZ at Harvard, with additional
later specimens deposited at Yale
Peabody Museum. The MCZ specimens were
badly mishandled at some point in the
past and not much remains of them
(two small polyps) but the YPM
specimens are in pretty good shape. So, even
though the latter are not types we knew
what we should look for. I might
add that this species has not been
collected since about 1890, so these
museum specimens are all we have. And
as Elena noted, they were not
preserved well enough to give DNA
information.
In 2005 we were awarded a series of
dives to document deep octocorals in
canyons and on seamounts off Georges
Bank, eastern USA. The first of those
dives was conducted at the bottom of
Gilbert Canyon, almost exactly on the
coordinates and at the depth specified
in Verrill's paper. Midway through
the dive, a small octocoral,
unbranched, was spotted growing on the muddy
bottom. It was collected, and later in
the lab was determined to be an
exact match to the YPM specimens we
knew Verrill had identified. So, now
its DNA has been sequenced and the
specimen is in the process of being
redescribed using modern morphological
methods. When this paper is at last
published we will show that Verrill
made a critical mistake in his
description which has lead all
octocoral taxonomists since to misidentify
many other corals in this family.
So, this is a case where the type
locality information was very useful, in
fact probably critical. Yes, there can
be cases where the information is
too general, or that a species at a
particular locality can be part of what
is later determined to be a complex.
But I would wager that for the vast
majority of species, the type locality
can be a very helpful and useful
piece of information and should not be
so cavalierly dispensed with. Which
also means, of course, that the type
locality should be designated with
care when describing new species. A
common joke in the marine world is what
to do when you find a new species in
the flowing seawater tank at some
marine lab.... obviously the tank
cannot be the type locality, so it
behooves the taxonomist to go on a hunt
for the natural habitat, and so on.
One last point, since I have my rant
going.... type localities can be very
useful in the conservation business.
They can be portrayed as sacrosanct,
especially to politicians, and thus
helpful in preserving habitat. Which
also suggests of course that they
should be designated with care.
Best,
Les
Les Watling
Professor, Dept. of Biology
216 Edmondson Hall
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Honolulu, HI 96822
Ph. 808-956-8621
Cell: 808-772-9563
e-mail: watling at hawaii.edu
On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 8:00 AM <taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
wrote:
> Daily News from the Taxacom
Mailing List
>
> When responding to a message,
please do not copy the entire digest into
> your reply.
>
____________________________________
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Type
localities (was: Bionomina 13 published) (Geoff Read)
> 2. Re: Type
localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> (Elena
Kupriyanova)
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 16:12:22
+1300
> From: "Geoff Read" <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type
localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> Message-ID:
> <80b5d5761ea7645b605a4b903ad59f1d.squirrel at my.actrix.co.nz>
> Content-Type:
text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Well Stephen, you'd probably need
new rules to do that!
>
> Re-identifying goes on all the
time. If an ecologist is using the data of
> previous records (now something
else, although probably only a change
> within a genus) for distributions,
etc, it's up to them to keep abreast of
> the status quo. How do
taxonomists usefully flag to ecologists there is
> something changed about a
well-known species that affects their work? I
> don't know, beyond putting a
comment about it in the abstract.
>
> Geoff
>
> On Fri, December 28, 2018 6:12 pm,
Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> > The bigger picture here is
that, in cases where a name is found to refer
> > to a complex of species, it
would make far more sense to abandon such
> > names entirely (except
perhaps as a name for the whole "complex"),
rather
> > than using them from that
point on as a name for just one species of the
> > complex. My rationale for
this is that such names refer to unreliable
> > (i.e. mixed species)
information up to the point when they are used for
> > just one species in the
complex. This means that someone wanting to find
> > out information about the
species will need to know exactly when the
> sense
> > of the name changed, and will
have to know to disregard all information
> > before that point in time. In
practice, this is unlikely, so confusion
> > will inevitably result with
old unreliable information being quoted still
> > for the species. However, we
seem to be stuck with an antiquated system
> of
> > nomenclature which tends to
obscure what is important in a mass of
> > pointless nomenclatural
details!
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
--------------------------------------------
> > On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena
Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Subject: RE: [Taxacom]
Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> > To: "Stephen Thorpe"
<stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Received: Friday, 28
December, 2018, 4:22 PM
> >
> > Yes, of course,
ultimately you
> > need to know the
distributions of the species in the
> > complex. But to figure
that out one has to start with the
> > distribution of the
name bearing species of the complex and
> > to find what the name
bearing species actually is one needs
> > to know the type
locality
> >
> >
> > Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
> > Senior Research
Scientist
> > Marine Invertebrates
> >
> > Associate Editor,
> > Records of
> > the Australian Museum
> >
> > Australian Museum
Research Institute
> > 1 William Street Sydney
NSW 2010 Australia
> > t 61 2 9320
6340Â m 61402735679Â f 61 2
> > 9320 6059
> > Visit: http://www.australianmuseum.net.au
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exploration of nature and
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> >
> > -----Original
Message-----
> > From: Stephen Thorpe
[mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> > Sent: Friday, 28
December 2018 1:21 PM
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > Elena Kupriyanova
<Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Type localities (was:
> > Bionomina 13
published)
> >
> > Not
> > quite! The type
localities per se still aren't important
> > in the situation you
describe. What matters is the
> > distributions of the
segregate species in the complex.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
--------------------------------------------
> > On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena
Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re:
> > [Taxacom] Type
localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> > To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Received: Friday, 28
December, 2018, 3:15
> > PM
> >
> > > to answer your
> > question, I wouldn't
> > think type
> > localities would be of
much importance at all for a
> > common, widespread
uniform species.
> >
> > Oh, really? Except for
the most common
> > situation in
shallow-water marine
> > invertebrates. Once
one actually bothers to look more or
> > less carefully at
this "common, widespread uniform
> > species" and discovers
a huge species complex beyond
> > the façade of this
"common" or evenÂ
> > "cosmopolitan species",
the importance of the
> > type localities
somehow becomes crystal clear.
> >
> >
> > Dr. Elena
> > Kupriyanova
> > Senior Research
Scientist
> > Marine Invertebrates
> >
> > Associate Editor,
> > Records of
> > the Australian Museum
> >
> >
> > Australian Museum
Research Institute
> > 1
> > William Street Sydney
NSW 2010
> > Australia
> > t 61 2 9320
6340Â m
> >
> > 61402735679Â f
61 2 9320 6059
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 11:07:23
+0000
> From: Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type
localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> Message-ID:
> <
> SY2PR01MB23789D74EE82F0A6FD62A5BCDEB00 at SY2PR01MB2378.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
>
> Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
> Senior Research Scientist
> Marine Invertebrates
>
> Associate Editor,
> Records of the Australian Museum
>
> Australian Museum Research
Institute
> 1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010
Australia
> t 61 2 9320 6340 m
61402735679 f 61 2 9320 6059
> Visit: http://www.australianmuseum.net.au
> Like: http://www.facebook.com/australianmuseum
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> Inspiring the exploration of
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>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 28 December 2018
3:07 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
Elena Kupriyanova <
> Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type
localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
>
> "to find what the name bearing
species actually is one needs to know the
> type locality"
>
> >I disagree! One simply needs
some way to associate the name with one and
> only one species in the complex.
Very often, type localities are too vague
> to be much use, might be
completely wrong, or there might be more than one
> species of the complex in the
stated type locality (especially if it is a
> vague/imprecise type locality).
>
> Yes, and what is the above
mentioned "some way" please?
>
> > I expect you are imagining a
scenario in which, say, some previously
> recognised species is now
considered to be a complex of ALLOPATRIC cryptic
> species
>
> Not necessarily. I think I clearly
stated the scenario I am not imagining,
> but am familiar with too well - a
huge species complex under a name of a
> species that is assumed to be
cosmopolitan for a no good reason other than
> it is assumed to be
cosmopolitan
>
> >and you want to know which of
those cryptic species the original name
> belongs to.
>
> Yes, don't we all?
>
> >The type locality MIGHT be a
guide (if it is correct, and if it is
> precise enough), but it might not
be of any use.
>
> It is the best guide we have, but
it MIGHT in some cases be incorrect or
> not precise enough indeed
>
> >If it isn't of any use, then
other means must be sought to associate the
> name with a species, and there are
several options.
>
> Ok, continue please, I really want
to know about those options
>
> > In theory, if you could
sequence the holotype, then DNA matching might
> do the trick.
>
> In theory? Have you tried this
approach? Yes, if it exists and if it was
> not fixed in formalin as most
marine inverts used to be fixed, this the
> best way.
>
> >At any rate, type localities
are not of any major importance: they may be
> helpful, but they may not. That's
all I'm saying (in the context of people
> like Alain Dubious giving them far
too much attention, IMHO)
>
> I cannot see where this (surely
unexpected :) conclusion comes from. If
> the holotype does not exist, you
collect fresh material as close as
> possible to the TYPE LOCALITY,
designate a neotype, describe and sequence
> it. If the holotype exists, but
cannot be sequenced, you collect fresh
> material as close as possible to
the TYPE LOCALITY, re-descibe the species
> based on the type and the fresh
material and sequence the fresh topotypical
> material. If the type locality is
not precise enough, you make an educated
> guess and see above. If you
discover several cryptic sympatric species the
> type locality, you take your pick
which one you consider as the name
> bearing species for the complex.
In all cases type locality is of paramount
> importance. I am now looking
forward to hearing about other several options
> mentioned above
>
> Best,
> Lena
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena
Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type
localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
"
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Friday, 28
December, 2018, 4:22 PM
>
> Yes, of course, ultimately
you
> need to know the
distributions of the species in the complex. But to
> figure that out one has to start
with the distribution of the name bearing
> species of the complex and
to find what the name bearing species actually
> is one needs to know the
type locality
>
>
> Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
> Senior Research Scientist
> Marine Invertebrates
>
> Associate Editor,
> Records of
> the Australian Museum
>
> Australian Museum Research
Institute
> 1 William Street Sydney NSW
2010 Australia t 61 2 9320 6340 m
> 61402735679 f 61 2
> 9320 6059
> Visit:
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Thorpe
[mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 28 December
2018 1:21 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type
localities (was:
> Bionomina 13 published)
>
> Not
> quite! The type localities
per se still aren't important in the
> situation you describe. What
matters is the distributions of the segregate
> species in the complex.
>
> Stephen
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena
Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re:
> [Taxacom] Type localities
(was: Bionomina 13 published)
> To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Friday, 28
December, 2018, 3:15 PM
>
> > to answer your
> question, I wouldn't
> think type
> localities would be of much
importance at all for a common, widespread
> uniform species.
>
> Oh, really? Except for the
most common
> situation in shallow-water
marine
> invertebrates. Once
one actually bothers to look more or less
carefully
> at this "common, widespread
uniform species" and discovers a huge
> species complex beyond the
façade of this "common" or even
"cosmopolitan
> species", the importance of
the type localities somehow becomes crystal
> clear.
>
>
> Dr. Elena
> Kupriyanova
> Senior Research Scientist
> Marine Invertebrates
>
> Associate Editor,
> Records of
> the Australian Museum
>
>
> Australian Museum Research
Institute
> 1
> William Street Sydney NSW
2010
> Australia
> t 61 2 9320 6340 m
>
> 61402735679 f 61 2
9320 6059
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