[Taxacom] [iczn-list] taxonomic "vandalism?"

[Scott Thomson]

No Ray,

turning names into trademarks will not permit scientists to be scientists.
It will make lawyers rich and turn taxonomy into Big Pharma. You only
promote this because people are ignoring you. I agree with Richard on
another point to, what your proposing is a double edged sword, the
repercussions of it could backfire on you too.

Cheers Scott

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:38 PM, Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <
viper007 at live.com.au> wrote:

> Agreed! - The long standing problem is Wuster's taxonomic vandalism and
> his false claims against others to "justify" it.
> A solution is simple - treat names like trademarks and registration in the
> same way.
> (Date of application becomes date of registration if name goes through
> standard process in the usual way).
> With everything done above board and data-based at time on creation, no
> one will be able to falsely claim being scooped or be able to (credibly)
> make false claims of theft against others who stick within the rules.
> We won the recent trademark cases simply because we were able to show we
> registered the relevant trademarks long BEFORE the members of the Wuster
> gang lurched onto the scene and tried to steal and use my long owned IP (I
> had owned the snakeman trademarks for decades, before the Wuster gang crew
> started using Google scams to usurp us in search - solely to illegally
> steal our clients). Government databases showed exact date of trademark
> registrations and exactly what the trademarks were for and so the Wuster
> gang simply had no defence for their illegal use of the words.
>
> Surely the same can be done simply with Nomenclature by the ICZN as well!
> (Yes Zoobank is a partial step the right way, but not matching what is
> done for trademarks).
>
>
> ..... and then scientists can get on with being scientists instead!
>
>
> Raymond Hoser
>
>
> Snakebusters <http://www.snakebusters.com.au> - Australia's best reptiles
> shows.
> Reptile parties <http://www.reptileparties.com.au>, events, courses,
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>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of
> Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
> *Sent:* Saturday, 7 October 2017 8:20 AM
> *To:* Michael A. Ivie; Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic "vandalism?"
>
> Mike,
>
>
> Shouldn't the fact that this is a long-standing problem motivate us to
> find a solution?
>
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
> --
> Dr. Wolfgang Wüster  -  Senior Lecturer
> School of Biological Sciences
> Bangor University
> Environment Centre Wales
> Bangor LL57  2UW
> Wales, UK
>
> Tel: +44 1248 382301 <+44%201248%20382301>
> Fax: +44 1248 382569 <+44%201248%20382569>
> E-mail: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk
> http://mefgl.bangor.ac.uk/staff/wuster.php
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
> Sent: 06 October 2017 17:39
> To: Wolfgang Wuster; Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic "vandalism?"
>
>
> Wolfgang,
>
>
> Of course I can see that what you describe is difficult to deal with, and
> something we should all try to avoid, but not that it is the end of the
> world.  Marice Pic described 38,000 species, mostly in his two privately
> published journals, with virtually never an illustration, the types in his
> personal collection (horribly curated), and descriptions of 2-6 lines,
> often without even mentioning what family they belonged to. So for shear
> scale, you have a minor problem relatively.  Yet, we deal with Pic's
> names.  And with Thomas Lincoln Casey's (same situation but with only
> 17,000 names and better descriptions).  Why is your situation so special?
> Poor taxonomists are there so we have something to curse at the bar, but
> they will always be around.  You give him so much attention, I suspect it
> actually encourages him to be outrageous?
>
>
> Mike
>
> On 10/6/2017 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Wuster wrote:
> Mike,
>
> I don’t think you fully appreciate the multifaceted nature of the problem,
> which involves a complex interplay of different combinations of poor
> ethics, poor quality, and the sheer volume of material involved.
>
> First, there *have* been multiple instances of taxa being hastily
> “described” that others were intending to name, and where there was good
> reason to believe that they were. Examples include multiple species
> described based on published in-depth phylogeographic studies, often very
> shortly after publication of the phylogeographic study, and even cases
> where the aim of scooping someone else was expicitly stated. So there are
> certainly multiple instances of practices you term as “immoral in my view,
> and against the Recommendations that follow the Code”, although they make
> up a minority of the total number of names. To go back to your initial
> point when you started the topic, you could of course argue that publishing
> *any* phylogeographic study while leaving potential new species unnamed is
> careless or negligent. Personally, I cannot reconcile myself with the view
> that we should let fear of these unethical practices dictate how we write
> our papers or communicate in science.
>
> For the rest, the vandalism problem resides more in the (lack of) quality
> and the quantity of output.
>
> Of course we all use range maps and published phylogenies to direct our
> research- that’s what they are there for. Spot an allopatric distribution
> and think there might be something to it? Great – hit a museum, collect
> some samples, run some sequences – whatever – and write it up with due
> methods and materials and results. And if there is competition between
> researchers working at a reasonable level of quality, then the first in
> print wins - not ideal, but we’ve all seen it happen without it being a big
> deal or there being accusations of vandalism. Heck, I recently reviewed a
> manuscript describing a species I had planned to describe myself, but since
> the authors had gathered better material than I had access  to and got on
> with it when I hadn’t, I cheered it on and it’s just been published – good
> on them. Believe it or not, I do live in the real world.
>
> At the risk of repeating the obvious at nauseam, in the contested cases,
> we see “descriptions” with the common feature of no M&M, a never-examined
> type randomly selected from a museum catalogue and entirely unsubstantiated
> claims of purported diagnostic characters. No actual sources of evidence,
> no specimens examined, and of course no DNA data. In other cases, every
> species in what was a single genus is given its own genus name, presumably
> in the expectation that one or other will eventually turn out to be
> available. And so on. Now multiply by many hundred. Those are not
> “taxonomic insights … later validated by re-examination of the data”, as
> you put it. And therefore, I do not accept that denouncing the de facto
> validation of these practices by the Code is simply a question of “being
> mad at someone for getting there first”, or, where it’s done on the
> industrial scale seen in herpetology, “a tempest in a teapot”.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wolfgang
>
> --
> Dr. Wolfgang Wüster  -  Senior Lecturer
> School of Biological Sciences
> Bangor University
> Environment Centre Wales
> Bangor LL57  2UW
> Wales, UK
>
> Tel: +44 1248 382301 <+44%201248%20382301>
> Fax: +44 1248 382569 <+44%201248%20382569>
> E-mail: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk<mailto:w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
> http://mefgl.bangor.ac.uk/staff/wuster.php
>
> From: Michael A. Ivie [mailto:mivie at montana.edu <mivie at montana.edu>]
> Sent: 06 October 2017 15:50
> To: Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk><mailto:w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>;
> Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu><mailto:dyanega at ucr.edu>;
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic "vandalism?"
>
>
> Now Wolfgang, to your second point.  As I  have followed this issue over
> the last few years, it was my understanding that the "vandal" was taking
> published data and naming taxa that were shown in such things as
> phylogenies and distribution maps, and using them to name taxa that the
> original authors were intending to name with the same data.  What you
> describe is simply taxonomic insight leading to new names.  What you say is
> "Most" of what is done is what we all do - take a new look at data and
> describe the new stuff, where is the allegation of "theft" in this?   The
> fact that you say "some turn out to be the oldest available names when
> someone else later does the work leading to recognition of the taxon as
> valid" shows clearly that those taxonomic insights, at least, are later
> validated by reexamination of the data.    Being mad that someone got there
> first is just being ridiculous.
>
>
>
> Everyone in our business is somewhere on the scale of perfect to terrible
> when it comes to creating synonyms.  I certainly have named things that
> turned out to be synonyms, but (so far) no one has called me a "vandal."
>
>
>
> So, my original point was based on the apparent misunderstanding that this
> charge of "vandalism" was because of using published or publicized data
> that were going to be used for a later nomenclatural act to "scoop" the
> original authors.  This is immoral in my view, and against the
> Recommendations that follow the Code.  If this is not the case in the
> majority of cases, this is just a tempest in a teapot over a person who
> does not conform to our ideas of "best practices."
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> On 10/6/2017 1:16 AM, Wolfgang Wuster wrote:
>
> Two things:
>
>
>
> First, I don't think there is a neutral position here.
>
> To give an analogy: if I fall asleep in a public place with my wallet
> lying unsecured next to me, then I am doing something very stupid. However,
> if someone takes the wallet, criminal law would still consider them a
> thief, with all the usual penalties. The Code would let them keep the
> wallet. Neither of those is a neutral position.
>
>
>
> Second, I don't think it's fair to say that most of the contentious
> descriptions are based on data carelessly left lying around by
> herpetologists. Most of these "descriptions" were pre-emptive and based on
> things like allopatric distributions in field guides, mitochondrial
> phylogeographic studies (neither of which by themselves justify new species
> descriptions) or weakly supported nodes in major supermatrix phylogenies
> (for genera). Many of the resulting names are of course just synonyms, but
> some turn out to be the oldest available names when someone else later does
> the work leading to recognition of the taxon as valid. In most of these
> cases, there is no case to be made that earlier workers were negligent, or
> even overly slow, in naming something: the name preceded the evidence.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
> --
> Dr. Wolfgang Wüster  -  Senior Lecturer
> School of Biological Sciences
> Bangor University
> Environment Centre Wales
> Bangor LL57  2UW
> Wales, UK
>
> Tel: +44 1248 382301 <+44%201248%20382301>
> Fax: +44 1248 382569 <+44%201248%20382569>
> E-mail: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk<mailto:w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
> http://mefgl.bangor.ac.uk/staff/wuster.php
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu><mailto:taxacom-
> bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu
> ><mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
> Sent: 06 October 2017 02:28
> To: Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.
> edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic "vandalism?"
>
>
> Not even close, Doug, what you quote out of context is not part of the
> Code, see the intro to the Appendeces.  The Code itself is neutral, and
> applies equally to any situation, immoral or not.
>
> Mike
> __________________________________________________
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu<mailto:mivie at montana.edu <mivie at montana.edu>>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Taxacom [taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces@
> mailman.nhm.ku.edu>] on behalf of Doug Yanega [dyanega at ucr.edu<mailto:
> dyanega at ucr.edu>]
> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 6:47 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic "vandalism?"
>
> On 10/5/17 5:20 PM, Michael A. Ivie wrote:
> > Blaming the Code is equivalent to blaming the victim.  The Code is
> > equally available to both the "victim" and the "vandal."  It is
> > neutral and blameless.
> >
> Actually, no, the Code is not neutral about this; it does take a clear
> stance on this exact issue, in Appendix A:
>
> "2. A zoologist should not publish a new name if he or she has reason to
> believe that another person has already recognized the same taxon and
> intends to establish a name for it (or that the taxon is to be named in
> a posthumous work). A zoologist in such a position should communicate
> with the other person (or their representatives) and only feel free to
> establish a new name if that person has failed to do so in a reasonable
> period (not less than a year)."
>
> Stealing other's intellectual property may not make your name
> unavailable, but it DOES violate the explicit text of the Code, above.
> When we asked for opinions from the taxonomic community whether this
> passage and the others in Appendix A should be made part of the
> legislative text (e.g., replace the term "should not" with "must not",
> and make availability contingent upon compliance), we got a lukewarm
> response from a handful of people. Evidently, and counterintuitively,
> taxonomists don't care enough about intellectual property to WANT any
> rules protecting it (or, at least, not enough to write letters
> indicating their concern). Otherwise, they should have written letters
> to the Commission when we openly pleaded with them to do so, about this
> EXACT problem, just a few years ago.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --
> Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology       Entomology Research Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
>               http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html<http://cache.ucr.
> edu/%7Eheraty/yanega.html
> <http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html%3Chttp://cache.ucr.edu/%7Eheraty/yanega.html>
> >
> Doug's Personal Page - University of California, Riverside<
> http://cache.ucr.edu/%7Eheraty/yanega.html>
> cache.ucr.edu
> Home of "Curious Scientific Names", along with assorted links to
> entomology, ecology, biodiversity, reference sites, utilities, and a little
> entertainment.
>
>
>
>    "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
>          is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
>
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> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
>
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
>
>
> US Post Office Address:
>
> Montana Entomology Collection
>
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>
> PO Box 173145
>
> Montana State University
>
> Bozeman, MT 59717
>
> USA
>
>
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
>
> Montana Entomology Collection
>
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>
> Montana State University
>
> Bozeman, MT 59718
>
> USA
>
>
>
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
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> mivie at montana.edu<mailto:mivie at montana.edu <mivie at montana.edu>>
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>
>
> Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 - Registered Charity No. 1141565
>
> Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys
> deunydd cyfrinachol ac wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y
> cawsant eu cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost hon
> trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a dilewch y neges. Os
> na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi, rhaid i chi beidio a defnyddio, cadw
> neu ddatgelu unrhyw wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu
> safbwynt yn eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid yn
> cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol Bangor yn gwarantu bod
> y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn
> ddiogel. Oni bai fod hyn wedi ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr
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> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu<mailto:mivie at montana.edu <mivie at montana.edu>>
>
>
>
>
> Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 - Registered Charity No. 1141565
>
> Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys
> deunydd cyfrinachol ac wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y
> cawsant eu cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost hon
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