[Taxacom] What taxon corresponds to "birds'?

[John Grehan]

I think Ken raised fair enough questions about how to choose to label and
classify organisms with respect to birds. Even though it might be a matter
of choice where to draw the line I have nothing against anyone making
particular arguments for particular cases, but in this example that got
lost when Ken conflated a labelling problem (which is inherent to the
entire history of taxonomy as noted by Francisco) with one particular
theory of how to construct phylogenetic trees.

John Grehan

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
wrote:

> OK, then I agree.  But there is a big (and growing?) difference between
> how we improve our understanding of evolutionary relationships among
> organisms (questions about biology), and how we choose to label and
> classify organisms (questions about human-to-human communication).  I read
> Ken's original question as being more about the latter (i.e., how to
> circumscribe a particular group, and which label to apply to it), than to
> the former.
>
> Aloha,
> Rich
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael A. Ivie [mailto:mivie at montana.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 11:38 AM
> > To: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] What taxon corresponds to "birds'?
> >
> > Richard,
> >
> > Oh, just that we know such things a capybaras are not fish, and that
> bats are
> > not birds and so on.  Also that birds are reptiles, and termites are
> > cockroaches.  That sort of progress.  You know, improvements in
> > understanding of relationships over those who wrote the Kosher laws
> > hundreds of years ago.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/29/2016 2:32 PM, Richard Pyle wrote:
> > >> For Ken to use historical precedent to override progress in
> > >> scientific understanding of life...
> > > Erm... by what metric are you measuring "progress" in our scientific
> > understanding of life, in this context?
> > >
> > > We certainly are making progress in our understanding of historical
> > evolutionary patterns. But in terms of how we apply nested sets of
> latinized
> > text-string labels to defined sets of organisms (and specifically the
> extent to
> > which our understanding of evolutionary patterns du jour should influence
> > and be reflected in those nested sets of text-string labels) -- which is
> my
> > understanding of what Ken's question is about -- I'm not really sure
> we've
> > made a whole lot of "progress" since the 1750's (except, perhaps, the
> > codification a little over a century ago of how those names are created,
> > prioritized, and anchored to biology).
> > >
> > > Nor am I convinced that "progress" is even helpful in this context (by
> > whatever metric you choose).
> > >
> > > Aloha,
> > > Rich
> > >
> > > Richard L. Pyle, PhD
> > > Database Coordinator for Natural Sciences | Associate Zoologist in
> > > Ichthyology | Dive Safety Officer Department of Natural Sciences,
> > > Bishop Museum, 1525 Bernice St., Honolulu, HI 96817
> > > Ph: (808)848-4115, Fax: (808)847-8252 email: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> > > http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/staff/pylerichard.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> >
> > --
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >
> > NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
> >
> > US Post Office Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > PO Box 173145
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59717
> > USA
> >
> > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59718
> > USA
> >
> >
> > (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> > mivie at montana.edu
>
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