[Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
Stephen Thorpe
stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Wed Jan 27 20:56:58 CST 2016
Damien,
I think you are confusing pornography with indecency. Not all pornography is also indecent. Pictures of children playing football is not indecent, but could be pornography to some unfortunate people out there.
Anyway, it was just a specific example to make the general point that reasonable definitions are not hard to come up with (oh dear!)
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 28/1/16, Damien HINSINGER <hin175 at free.fr> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Cc: "Frank T. Krell" <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>, taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu, "Laurent Raty" <l.raty at skynet.be>, "John Noyes" <j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk>, deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
Received: Thursday, 28 January, 2016, 3:27 PM
It doesn’t work !
Pictures of children playing to football will elicit sexual
arousal responses in at least some people.
But I’m sure we all agree that your (and our) family photo
album is not a pedophile porn collection.
I don’t encourage you to go and watch some porn, but the
mankind imagination is unlimited in what can "elicit sexual
arousal responses » at least in some people...
Damien
> Le 28 janv. 2016 à 06:33, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
a écrit :
>
>> In particular, trying to define "Metadata" is like
trying to define pornography<
>
> Pornography = representations (verbal, visual,
auditory, etc.) of a kind which elicit sexual arousal
responses in at least some people.
>
> Now that wasn't so hard (I mean difficult!) was it? It
possibly makes some ferrari commercials count as
pornography, but perhaps they are to some people!
>
> Anyway, the point is that it is not difficult to come
up with a reasonably solid definition of metadata for our
purposes:
>
> Metadata = information added by publishers (not
authors) to a submitted manuscript. Two documents which
differ only in metadata are, by definition, the same version
of the publication. Ergo, what is or is not a final version
has nothing to do with metadata.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 28/1/16, Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names
online published - one new species
> To: "'Frank T. Krell'" <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>,
"'Stephen Thorpe'" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
"'Laurent Raty'" <l.raty at skynet.be>,
"'John Noyes'" <j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk>
> Received: Thursday, 28 January, 2016, 11:11 AM
>
> I agree in the sense that
> we are primarily limited by English language.
It's
> easy to suggest that a couple of sentences could
provide
> clarity on the "Metadata issue". What's not so
> easy is crafting those sentences in a way that does
not
> introduce even more ambiguities. In particular,
trying to
> define "Metadata" is like trying to define
> pornography*. We all know it when we see it,
but... to
> capture an unambiguous definition is extremely
elusive.
> I've worked in informatics circles for decades, and
> believe me when I say there is no clear definition for
what
> it actually means (for a tiny taste, look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metadata)
>
> Consider that the Amendment
> for electronic publication underwent nearly four years
of
> review, and massive amounts of discussion both within
the
> Commission and among the public. It is, perhaps,
the most
> scrutinized and carefully word-smithed part of the Code
as
> it currently exists. Yet, we have these seemingly
endless
> discussions about parsing its exact meaning. The
Code as a
> whole is full of similar (and worse) ambiguities,
despite
> four editions and nearly a century of revisions and
careful
> scrutiny.
>
> I believe the
> Commission should be much more proactive in issuing
> Declarations, and I believe these should be
immediately
> reflected in the online edition of the Code (which is
the
> version I now consult routinely). In the old
days, we all
> used to keep our dogged-eared print copy of the Code
full of
> notes and clarifications and whatnot to help us come
to
> consensus on deriving meaning from the words as printed
on
> the pages. Perhaps part of the way forward for
the ICZN is
> to make the online version of the Code itself a more
> reliable document, containing not just all of the
Amendment
> text, but also relevant Declarations (including
specific
> examples), and perhaps even an archived discussion
forum
> related to specific articles. Some of that
already exists
> on the 5th Edition Wiki.
>
> In
> any case, one thing we ALL probably agree on is that
there
> is an unacceptably high level of confusion and
ambiguity
> concerning not so much the exact wording of the Code,
but
> how best to interpret those words in the context of a
highly
> heterogeneous reality.
>
> Aloha,
> Rich
>
> *With apologies to former U.S. Supreme Court
> Justice Potter Stewart.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> On Behalf
>> Of Frank T. Krell
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 10:38
> AM
>> To: Stephen Thorpe; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> Laurent Raty; John
>> Noyes
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> two names online published - one
>> new
> species
>>
>>
> Stephen,
>> We are in agreement in all
> points here. Several Commissioners are already
>> bothered, and we will see if the whole
> Commission can agree (at least in
>>
> majority) to proceed in this direction. It might well
do. I
> think most already
>> agreed that some
> sort of action and clarification is necessary.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> Dr Frank T. Krell
>> Curator of Entomology
>>
> Commissioner, International Commission on Zoological
> Nomenclature Chair,
>> ICZN ZooBank
> Committee Department of Zoology Denver Museum of
Nature
>> & Science
>> 2001
> Colorado Boulevard
>> Denver, CO
> 80205-5798 USA
>> Frank.Krell at dmns.org
>> Phone: (+1) (303) 370-8244
>> Fax: (+1) (303) 331-6492
>> http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
>> lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
>>
>> Test your powers of
> observation in The International Exhibition of
Sherlock
>> Holmes, open until January 31. And prepare
> your palate for Chocolate: The
>>
> Exhibition, opening February 12.
>>
>> The Denver Museum of Nature & Science
> salutes the citizens of metro
>> Denver
> for helping fund arts, culture and science through
their
> support of the
>> Scientific and Cultural
> Facilities District (SCFD).
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> On Behalf
>> Of Stephen Thorpe
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 1:25
> PM
>> To: 'Stephen Thorpe' <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> Laurent Raty <l.raty at skynet.be>;
> John
>> Noyes <j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk>
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> two names online published - one
>> new
> species
>>
>> Hi
> John,
>>
>>> It is
> still a big mess and nothing is clear<
>>
>> On that we agree
> (except, of course, that it isn't a mess and nothing
> is
>> unclear if we are talking about the
> Zootaxa publishing model).
>>
>>> If we have a code of zoological
> nomenclature we must follow what it
>>
>> says not what someone says it is supposed to say
or
> should say<
>>
>> On
> this I can't quite agree, for the following reason:
> language is inherently
>> vague and
> ambiguous. You have already said that "nothing is
> clear", and I
>> have agreed.
> Therefore one cannot simply follow what the Code
> "says"
>> ('states'
> actually, since it cannot speak!), because it doesn't
> make precise and
>> unambiguous
> prescriptions which can be followed in a well defined
> manner.
>> Therefore we do need to be
> pragmatic, though perhaps not quite so "stick it
>> anywhere liberal" as Frank Krell
> suggests! Your insistence that an
>>
> unpaginated online first version be denied availability
is
> simply
>> counterproductive and causes
> more problems than it solves.
>>
>> Of course, what we actually need is a
> simple official declaration by the ICZN
>>
> (perhaps just a couple of sentences) to the effect
that
> metadata doesn't
>> matter and
> clarifying that online first versions are to be
considered
> available
>> (provided that they are
> otherwise fully Code compliant). But can the ICZN be
>> bothered?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
> --------------------------------------------
>> On Wed, 27/1/16, John Noyes <j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>>
>> Subject:
> RE: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online
published
> -
>> one new species
>> To: "'Stephen Thorpe'"
> <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
>> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
>> "Laurent Raty" <l.raty at skynet.be>
>> Received: Wednesday, 27 January, 2016,
> 10:28 PM
>>
>> Hi
> Stephen,
>>
>> I hate
> to bring this up again
>> but there a
> good number of us (probably the majority of my
colleagues
> -
>> certainly all the ones that I have
> talked to) do not agree that an early view
>> version is to be considered available if
> it differs in any way (including
>>
> metadata) from the final published version. The
fact that
> some of the most
>> vociferous of you say
> that metadata does not matter is neither here
nor
>> there. It is still a big mess and
> nothing is clear. If we have a code of
>> zoological nomenclature we must follow
> what it says not what someone
>> says it
> is supposed to say or should say. Hopefully these
problems
> can be
>> ironed out satisfactorily and
> will ultimately not have any serious impact on
>> nomenclature, especially priority.
>>
>> John
>>
>> John Noyes
>> Scientific
>>
> Associate
>> Department of Life
> Sciences
>> Natural History Museum
>> Cromwell
>> Road
>> South Kensington
>>
> London
>> SW7 5BD
>>
> UK
>> jsn at nhm.ac.uk
>> Tel.: +44 (0) 207 942 5594
>> Fax.: +44 (0) 207 942 5229
>>
>> Universal
> Chalcidoidea Database (everything you wanted to
know
> about
>> chalcidoids and more):
>> www.nhm.ac.uk/chalcidoids
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe
>> Sent: 26 January
>>
> 2016 20:57
>> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
>> Laurent Raty
>>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
>> Important note
> Re: two names online published - one new species
>>
>> Laurent,
>>
>> Once again you are
> mistaken,
>> but that doesn't
> reflect badly on you, it reflects badly on the
the
> almost
>> bewilderingly confusing way that
> the Code has been written.
>>
>> As long
>> as the
> early view file is considered to be the version
of record
> (with
>> preregistration on ZooBank truly
> indicated within), all that matters is that
>> the PDF file for it contains something
> which can be reasonably interpreted as
>>
> a date of publication. If the subsequent print
edition
> is different in any
>> regard, this is
> irrelevant.
>>
>> So,
> in your example a
>> statement
> "Systematic Entomology (2015) ..." in the online
> edition contains
>> a date of
> publication (incompletely specified as 2015), so,
all
> other things
>> being equal, is Code
> compliant. It is irrelevant what happens after
that.
>> What is technically made available is the
> online first PDF (which probably
>>
> never gets archived, but actual archiving isn't
> actually a Code requirement!)
>>
>> It is all a big mess but a few
>> things are clear enough.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
> --------------------------------------------
>> On Wed, 27/1/16, Laurent Raty <l.raty at skynet.be>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Re:
>> [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names
> online published - one new
>> species
>> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> Received: Wednesday, 27
> January, 2016, 9:30 AM
>>
>> Stephen,
>>
>
>> When an early view
> file
>> issued
>> in 2015 gets included in a
> 2016
>> volumes, an original
> statement "Systematic Entomology (2015), DOI:
>>
>>
>> 10.1111/syen.#####" (as in the
>>
>>
> yet-to-be-published file here:
>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/syen.12157/epdf
>> ) is
>> *changed* into a
>> statement
>> "Systematic
> Entomology
>> (2016), 41,
> ##-##."
>> (as in this
> file:
>>
>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/syen.12142/epdf
>> , which is
>> registered in
>> ZooBank as
>> being published on 12 Aug
> 2015:
>>
>> http://zoobank.org/urn:lsid:zoo
>>
>>
> bank.org:pub:38D703ED-127A-4DB0-8153-8D78AF4AC212
>> ).
>>
>> The year
>> that appears in
>> this statement in the
> final
>> file (the only one that
> remains) is *not*, nor is even
>>
> *intended* to be, the year of publication
of the pdf
> file that we are trying
>> here to make
> "published".
>>
>> It
>> is
> the year of publication of the print run.
>>
>> And of
> nothing
>> else.
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Laurent -
>>
>
>>
>> On
> 01/26/2016 08:43 PM,
>>
>> Stephen Thorpe wrote:
>>> Laurent,
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
> You
>> are contrasting
> "in the work
>> itself" with
> "metadata", but this >
>>
> isnot necessarily so. Remember that the concept
of
> "metadata", as used >
>>
> here, didn't exist when the Amendment was
drafted.
> Zhang just >
>> subsequently pulled
> it out of a hat in order to try to save
the >
> Amendment
>> from objections relating to
> "preliminary versions". Anyway, if >
you
>> contrast "in the work itself"
> instead with "just on the publisher's
>
> web
>> page for the article, or
> elsewhere", then "Systematic Entomology
>
> (2016),
>> 41, 287–297"
>> is "in the work
> itself". This seems
>> like a
>> reasonable and pragmatic interpretation to
make,
> which avoids
>> this > particular
> problem.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>
> Stephen
>>
>>
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