[Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
Frank T. Krell
Frank.Krell at dmns.org
Wed Jan 27 14:37:48 CST 2016
Stephen,
We are in agreement in all points here. Several Commissioners are already bothered, and we will see if the whole Commission can agree (at least in majority) to proceed in this direction. It might well do. I think most already agreed that some sort of action and clarification is necessary.
Frank
Dr Frank T. Krell
Curator of Entomology
Commissioner, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
Chair, ICZN ZooBank Committee
Department of Zoology
Denver Museum of Nature & Science
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Frank.Krell at dmns.org
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Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 1:25 PM
To: 'Stephen Thorpe' <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; Laurent Raty <l.raty at skynet.be>; John Noyes <j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
Hi John,
>It is still a big mess and nothing is clear<
On that we agree (except, of course, that it isn't a mess and nothing is unclear if we are talking about the Zootaxa publishing model).
>If we have a code of zoological nomenclature we must follow what it
>says not what someone says it is supposed to say or should say<
On this I can't quite agree, for the following reason: language is inherently vague and ambiguous. You have already said that "nothing is clear", and I have agreed. Therefore one cannot simply follow what the Code "says" ('states' actually, since it cannot speak!), because it doesn't make precise and unambiguous prescriptions which can be followed in a well defined manner. Therefore we do need to be pragmatic, though perhaps not quite so "stick it anywhere liberal" as Frank Krell suggests! Your insistence that an unpaginated online first version be denied availability is simply counterproductive and causes more problems than it solves.
Of course, what we actually need is a simple official declaration by the ICZN (perhaps just a couple of sentences) to the effect that metadata doesn't matter and clarifying that online first versions are to be considered available (provided that they are otherwise fully Code compliant). But can the ICZN be bothered?
Cheers,
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 27/1/16, John Noyes <j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk> wrote:
Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
To: "'Stephen Thorpe'" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "Laurent Raty" <l.raty at skynet.be>
Received: Wednesday, 27 January, 2016, 10:28 PM
Hi Stephen,
I hate to bring this up again
but there a good number of us (probably the majority of my colleagues - certainly all the ones that I have talked to) do not agree that an early view version is to be considered available if it differs in any way (including metadata) from the final published version. The fact that some of the most vociferous of you say that metadata does not matter is neither here nor there. It is still a big mess and nothing is clear. If we have a code of zoological nomenclature we must follow what it says not what someone says it is supposed to say or should say. Hopefully these problems can be ironed out satisfactorily and will ultimately not have any serious impact on nomenclature, especially priority.
John
John Noyes
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Associate
Department of Life Sciences
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jsn at nhm.ac.uk
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-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe
Sent: 26 January
2016 20:57
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
Laurent Raty
Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
Laurent,
Once again you are mistaken,
but that doesn't reflect badly on you, it reflects badly on the the almost bewilderingly confusing way that the Code has been written.
As long
as the early view file is considered to be the version of record (with preregistration on ZooBank truly indicated within), all that matters is that the PDF file for it contains something which can be reasonably interpreted as a date of publication. If the subsequent print edition is different in any regard, this is irrelevant.
So, in your example a
statement "Systematic Entomology (2015) ..." in the online edition contains a date of publication (incompletely specified as 2015), so, all other things being equal, is Code compliant. It is irrelevant what happens after that. What is technically made available is the online first PDF (which probably never gets archived, but actual archiving isn't actually a Code requirement!)
It is all a big mess but a few
things are clear enough.
Cheers,
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 27/1/16, Laurent Raty <l.raty at skynet.be>
wrote:
Subject: Re:
[Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Received: Wednesday, 27 January, 2016, 9:30 AM
Stephen,
When an early view file
issued
in 2015 gets included in a 2016
volumes, an original statement "Systematic Entomology (2015), DOI:
10.1111/syen.#####" (as in the
yet-to-be-published file here:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/syen.12157/epdf
) is
*changed* into a
statement
"Systematic Entomology
(2016), 41, ##-##."
(as in this file:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/syen.12142/epdf
, which is
registered in
ZooBank as
being published on 12 Aug 2015:
http://zoobank.org/urn:lsid:zoo
bank.org:pub:38D703ED-127A-4DB0-8153-8D78AF4AC212
).
The year
that appears in
this statement in the final
file (the only one that remains) is *not*, nor is even
*intended* to be, the year of publication of the pdf file that we are trying here to make "published".
It
is the year of publication of the print run.
And of nothing
else.
Cheers, Laurent -
On 01/26/2016 08:43 PM,
Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> Laurent,
>
>
You
are contrasting "in the work
itself" with "metadata", but this >
isnot necessarily so. Remember that the concept of "metadata", as used > here, didn't exist when the Amendment was drafted. Zhang just > subsequently pulled it out of a hat in order to try to save the > Amendment from objections relating to "preliminary versions". Anyway, if > you contrast "in the work itself" instead with "just on the publisher's > web page for the article, or elsewhere", then "Systematic Entomology > (2016), 41, 287–297"
is "in the work itself". This seems
like a > reasonable and pragmatic interpretation to make, which avoids this > particular problem.
>
>
Cheers,
>
>
Stephen
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