[Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species

Stephen Thorpe stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sun Jan 24 19:04:21 CST 2016


Mike,

Actually, I suspect that I have better tertiary qualifications in logic than you do, not that it necessarily means much, but nevertheless probably in fact accurately enough indicates the difference between us in this regard.

>The idea you propose that thousands of years of human induced selection could be guided by the eventual need for fitting teats to an as yet unimaginable milking machine<

That wasn't the idea that I proposed! I said hundreds of years of selective breeding to optimise milk production. I didn't mention milking machines! How could you have misread what I wrote so badly?

Your "eye witness" argument also sinks like a stone. The testimony of "eye witnesses" who are close colleagues of "the accused" (working together for a common goal) doesn't actually count for much, I think you will find! On the contrary, I do have evidence (evidence not being quite the same thing as proof, of course). My evidence is that the one publishing model which is immune to any problems whatsoever resulting from the Amendment is the Zootaxa model. That is in itself evidence, not proof but evidence, of the COI, which the other commissioners might not even have considered or noticed, for all I know, but the end result is the same.

We now have a situation whereby, for many journals, the (date of) availability for new taxon names is indeterminate. But for Zootaxa it is all quite clear and unproblematic. How did this situation arise?

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
 To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016, 1:49 PM
 
 Stephen,
 
 The idea you propose that thousands of years of human
 induced selection 
 could be guided by the eventual need for fitting teats to an
 as yet 
 unimaginable milking machine illustrates perhaps the best
 understanding 
 of your way of thinking we have ever seen.  You are a
 determinalist, 
 clearly, and think evolution proceeds to a needed end. 
 This also 
 explains your need to see this Amendment/Zootaxa situation
 the way you 
 do.  Not sure if this is a lack of logic training in
 your education or 
 just something inherent, but it is instructive in
 understanding your 
 argument.
 
 In fact, using your court analogy, we have several eye
 witnesses to the 
 situation, and they all disagree with your assertions. 
 You were not 
 there, they were.  For you to be right, they must all
 have conspired to 
 let this nefarious action occur and cover it up for the
 benefit of the 
 evil doer, in effect as a group, aiding a abetting insider
 advantage, 
 which is a conspiracy.  Since you have no proof, the
 best you can go for 
 is a theory.  Ipso facto, you are pushing a conspiracy
 theory, Rich is 
 vindicated!
 
 All evidence is contrary to your conspiracy theory, as eye
 witness 
 testimony is evidence, and nothing you have is.
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 
 On 1/24/2016 5:33 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
 > Mike, Mike, Mike,
 >
 > Let me be the first to fess up to talking about
 something I don't really understand, i.e. milking and
 selective breeding of cattle. I'm more than happy to defer
 to you on that one, though I only actually said that your
 statement (which was clearly intended to sound ridiculous)
 was perhaps no so far from the truth, that's all. But enough
 of that digression!
 >
 > OK, so you are arguing that Zootaxa was made fully
 compliant with the Amendment after the fact, and every other
 publisher should do the same, or risk noncompliance issues
 infecting their output. Well, that is easy to postulate, but
 difficult to prove (or even support with any real evidence).
 Maybe this is precisely why COIs should always be avoided,
 precisely because it raises doubts which can never really be
 put to rest. If you were on trial Mike (innocent of
 course!), would you accept one of the jurors being related
 to the victim?
 >
 > Stephen
 >
 > --------------------------------------------
 > On Mon, 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
 wrote:
 >
 >   Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note
 Re: two names online published - one new species
 >   To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016,
 1:23 PM
 >   
 >   Nah, it was not hypocrisy, it was
 >   intentional, just payback for your
 >   actions.  And, no, you didn't
 already answer it, you
 >   had only addressed
 >   a unidirectional model of conspiracy
 and COI.  That the
 >   direction of
 >   influence was the other way had never
 been address, more
 >   smoke and
 >   mirrors by you.
 >   
 >   I take it you have no real experience
 with milking machines,
 >   either.
 >   Your statement would get you laughed
 out of a milking
 >   parlor.
 >   
 >   Mike
 >   
 >   On 1/24/2016 5:18 PM, Stephen Thorpe
 wrote:
 >   > BTW, Mike, you accuse me of a
 "personal attack" against
 >   you (for merely pointing out that you
 asked something that I
 >   had already answered!), and then you
 accuse me of having a
 >   (your words) "conspiracy fetish"!
 There is a word beginning
 >   with H which describes you (and
 possibly words starting with
 >   other letters too!) There is no
 conspiracy, just a common or
 >   garden case of COI, plain for all the
 world to see.
 >   >
 >   > Stephen
 >   >
 >   >
 --------------------------------------------
 >   > On Mon, 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie
 <mivie at montana.edu>
 >   wrote:
 >   >
 >   >   Subject: Re:
 [Taxacom] Important note
 >   Re: two names online published - one
 new species
 >   >   To: "Stephen
 Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 >   taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   Received:
 Monday, 25 January, 2016,
 >   1:06 PM
 >   >
 >   >   Stephen,
 >   >
 >   >   Again, you try
 to distract us with a
 >   personal attack,
 >   >   claiming I am
 not
 >   >   doing something
 "properly."  Do
 >   try to stick to the
 >   >   topic.
 >   >   Zootaxa dates to
 before the amendment
 >   but was not compliant
 >   >   with the
 >   >   amendment before
 the Amendment was
 >   proposed, so your straw
 >   >   man is just
 >   >   smoke and
 mirrors to cover your
 >   conspiracy fetish.
 >   >   Because Zootaxa
 was
 >   >   compliant with
 the Amendment after the
 >   amendment was
 >   >   adopted, but by
 the
 >   >   time it was in
 force, sensibly taking
 >   advantage of the long
 >   >   announced
 >   >   period between
 being advertized and
 >   going into force, is
 >   >   simply the
 >   >   actions of a
 good editor trying to
 >   work within the needs of
 >   >   Zoological
 >   >   Nomenclature and
 our community.
 >   >
 >   >   Your argument is
 like saying cow
 >   udders were designed to
 >   >   optimized the
 >   >   profits of those
 who make milking
 >   machines.
 >   >
 >   >   Mike
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >   On 1/24/2016
 4:37 PM, Stephen Thorpe
 >   wrote:
 >   >   > If you had
 read my posts
 >   properly, Mike, you would
 >   >   already know the
 answer to that! Which
 >   came first? Zootaxa
 >   >   or Amendment?
 >   >   >
 >   >   > Stephen
 >   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   --------------------------------------------
 >   >   > On Mon,
 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie
 >   <mivie at montana.edu>
 >   >   wrote:
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   Subject:
 Re:
 >   [Taxacom] Important note
 >   >   Re: two names
 online published - one
 >   new species
 >   >   >   To:
 taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   >   Received:
 >   Monday, 25 January, 2016,
 >   >   12:23 PM
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   Stephen,
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   Why
 is it not
 >   more likely, in the face
 >   >   of first person
 >   >   >   testimony
 from
 >   >   >   those
 present,
 >   that Zootaxa was
 >   >   optimized TO THE
 AMENDMENT,
 >   >   >   and
 not the
 >   >   >   other
 way
 >   around, which you cling to
 >   >   as a drowning
 man to a
 >   >   >   piece
 of
 >   >   >   styrofoam?
 >   Seems to me that a
 >   >   publisher that
 looks at
 >   >   >   the
 amendment,
 >   >   >   and
 sets their
 >   journal to conform to
 >   >   it should be put
 up on
 >   >   >   a
 pedestal
 >   >   >   as
 an example to
 >   the world, not
 >   >   accused of
 nefarious insider
 >   >   >   trading.
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   Mike
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   On
 1/24/2016
 >   2:26 PM, Stephen Thorpe
 >   >   wrote:
 >   >   >   >
 Other
 >   publishers were no doubt
 >   >   consulted to
 some
 >   >   >   extent,
 yes.
 >   Neverthless, we have
 >   >   ended up in a
 situation
 >   >   >   whereby
 the
 >   electronic amendment is
 >   >   optimised to the
 Zootaxa
 >   >   >   publishing
 >   model, and many other
 >   >   publishers fall
 into a
 >   >   >   messy
 and
 >   indeterminate basket. Note
 >   >   that the
 Zootaxa
 >   >   >   publishing
 model
 >   wasn't created so as
 >   >   to be fully
 Code
 >   >   >   compliant
 with
 >   the electronic
 >   >   amendment. The
 Zootaxa model
 >   >   >   predates
 the
 >   amendment by several
 >   >   years. At the
 very least,
 >   >   >   Zhang
 had inside
 >   knowledge of what was
 >   >   going to result
 from
 >   >   >   the
 amendment
 >   well ahead of time, and
 >   >   thereby had an
 >   >   >   advantage
 over
 >   other publishers.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 These are
 >   facts Frank. I cannot
 >   >   be wrong. Not
 unless
 >   >   >   you
 can offer a
 >   convincing alternative
 >   >   explanation as
 to why
 >   >   >   the
 electronic
 >   amendment fits Zootaxa
 >   >   hand in glove,
 while
 >   >   >   other
 publishers
 >   are left in a gray
 >   >   zone. Well?
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 Stephen
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   --------------------------------------------
 >   >   >   >
 On Mon,
 >   25/1/16, Frank T. Krell
 >   >   <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
 >   >   >   wrote:
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Subject:
 >   RE:
 >   >   [Taxacom]
 Important note
 >   >   >   Re:
 two names
 >   online published -
 >   >   one   
 new
 >   >   >   species
 >   >   >   >   To:
 >   "Stephen
 >   >   Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 >   >   >   "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
 >   >   >   <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
 >   >   >   "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 >   >   >   <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
 >   >   >   "'Doug
 Yanega'"
 >   <dyanega at ucr.edu>
 >   >   >   >   Cc:
 >   "'engel'"
 >   >   <msengel at ku.edu>
 >   >   >   >   Received:
 >   >   Monday, 25
 January, 2016,
 >   >   >   10:16
 AM
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   To
 >   you. But you
 >   >   are
 >   >   >   >   wrong.
 >   You won't
 >   >   be convinced
 >   >   >   otherwise,
 so it
 >   is
 >   >   >   >   useless
 >   to
 >   >   repeat that
 other
 >   >   >   publishers
 were
 >   consulted
 >   >   >   >   etc.
 >   >   >   >   You
 >   believe what
 >   >   you want
 anyway.
 >   >   >   >   Frank
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   -----Original
 >   >   Message-----
 >   >   >   >   From:
 >   Stephen
 >   >   Thorpe
 [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Sent:
 >   Sunday,
 >   >   January 24, 2016
 2:11
 >   >   >   PM
 >   >   >   >   To:
 >   Stephen
 >   >   Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
 >   >   >   >   deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
 >   >   >   >   taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >   >   >   >   'Doug
 >   Yanega'
 >   >   <dyanega at ucr.edu>;
 >   >   >   >   Frank
 >   T. Krell
 >   >   <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
 >   >   >   >   Cc:
 >   'engel'
 >   >   <msengel at ku.edu>
 >   >   >   >   Subject:
 >   RE:
 >   >   [Taxacom]
 Important note
 >   >   >   Re:
 two
 >   >   >   >   names
 >   online
 >   >   published - one
 new
 >   >   >   species
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Frank,
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Zootaxa
 >   >   >   >   is
 >   very relevant
 >   >   to this whole
 thread
 >   >   >   and
 wider
 >   >   >   >   discussion.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Fact
 >   (1): there
 >   >   >   >   are
 >   significant
 >   >   problems with
 the
 >   >   >   electronic
 >   amendment (no,
 >   >   >   >   the
 >   sky isn't
 >   >   falling down,
 people
 >   >   >   aren't
 running
 >   >   >   >   for
 >   the hills in
 >   >   droves, etc.,
 but in
 >   >   >   the
 context of
 >   >   >   >   zoological
 >   >   nomenclature
 there are
 >   >   >   significant
 >   problems),
 >   >   >   >   none
 >   of which
 >   >   affect the
 Zootaxa
 >   >   >   publishing
 >   model.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Fact
 >   (2): the
 >   >   owner of
 Zootaxa
 >   >   >   >   is
 >   a prominent
 >   >   member of the
 ICZN who
 >   >   >   had
 a
 >   significant part
 >   >   >   >   to
 >   play in the
 >   >   development of
 the
 >   >   >   electronic
 >   amendment.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Now,
 >   you can
 >   >   claim, if you
 >   >   >   >   really
 >   want to,
 >   >   that facts (1)
 and (2)
 >   >   >   are
 >   independent,
 >   >   >   >   coincidence,
 >   or
 >   >   whatever, but to
 me it
 >   >   >   looks
 like a
 >   classic
 >   >   >   >   case
 >   of a COI.
 >   >   The best
 interests of
 >   >   >   zoological
 >   nomenclature
 >   >   >   >   as
 >   a whole are
 >   >   not necessarily
 the
 >   >   >   best
 interests
 >   of Zootaxa
 >   >   >   >   in
 >   particular.
 >   >   You make
 yourself look
 >   >   >   foolish
 if you
 >   refuse
 >   >   >   >   to
 >   acknowledge
 >   >   the problem
 here. You
 >   >   >   might
 claim that
 >   the
 >   >   >   >   COI
 >   is
 >   >   outweighed by
 other more
 >   >   >   important
 >   factors (like,
 >   >   >   >   maybe,
 >   keeping
 >   >   the ICZN viable
 and
 >   >   >   running),
 but it
 >   is
 >   >   >   >   really
 >   >   self-evident
 that the
 >   >   >   electronic
 >   amendment was
 >   >   >   >   optimised
 >   for
 >   >   the Zootaxa
 publishing
 >   >   >   model
 and to
 >   hell with
 >   >   >   >   any
 >   other
 >   >   alternative.
 There is no
 >   >   >   room
 for doubt
 >   regarding
 >   >   >   >   the
 >   Code
 >   >   compliance of
 Zootaxa
 >   >   >   articles,
 but
 >   articles from
 >   >   >   >   many
 >   other
 >   >   publishers are
 very much in
 >   >   >   the
 "how
 >   liberal
 >   >   >   >   do
 >   you feel"
 >   >   bucket, and it
 isn't
 >   >   >   going
 to be
 >   long
 >   >   >   >   before
 >   >   taxonomists
 start renaming taxa
 >   >   >   already
 named
 >   by
 >   >   >   >   others
 >   in these
 >   >   dubiously valid
 >   >   >   publications
 >   (just like
 >   >   >   >   Scott
 >   Thomson
 >   >   renames taxa
 from
 >   >   >   Australasian
 >   Journal of
 >   >   >   >   Herpetology).
 >   >   All this is not
 good! It
 >   >   >   isn't
 a corrupt
 >   >   >   >   conspiracy,
 >   or
 >   >   anything of the
 sort.
 >   >   >   It
 is just not
 >   good for
 >   >   >   >   zoological
 >   >   nomenclature,
 not good for
 >   >   >   taxonomy,
 and
 >   not good
 >   >   >   >   for
 >   science.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Stephen
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   --------------------------------------------
 >   >   >   >   On
 >   Mon, 25/1/16,
 >   >   Frank T. Krell
 <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
 >   >   >   >   wrote:
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     Subject: RE:
 >   >   >   >   [Taxacom]
 >   >   Important note
 Re: two names
 >   >   >   online
 published
 >   -
 >   >   >   >   one
 >   >   new species
 >   >   >   >
 >     To: "Stephen
 >   >   >   >   Thorpe"
 >   <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 >   >   >   >   "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
 >   >   >   >   <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
 >   >   >   >   "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 >   >   >   >   <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
 >   >   >   >   "'Doug
 >   Yanega'"
 >   >   <dyanega at ucr.edu>
 >   >   >   >
 >     Cc: "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
 >   >   >   >
 >     Received: Monday, 25
 >   >   January, 2016,
 9:40
 >   >   >   AM
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     As expected.
 >   >   >   >
 >     Still being
 >   >   pragmatic.
 >   >   >   >
 >     And
 >   >   >   >
 >     Zootaxa again, out
 >   >   of context, but
 in
 >   >   >   your
 >   >   >   >   mind
 >   all
 >   >   the  time.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Frank
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     -----Original
 >   >   >   >   Message-----
 >   >   >   >
 >     From: Stephen
 >   >   Thorpe
 >   >   >   >   [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     Sent: Sunday,
 >   >   January 24,
 >   >   >   >   2016
 >   1:37 PM
 >   >   >   >
 >     To: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
 >   >   >   >
 >     'Stephen Thorpe'
 >   >   <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
 >   >   >   >   taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >   >   >   >   'Doug
 >   Yanega'
 >   >   <dyanega at ucr.edu>;
 >   >   >   >   Frank
 >   T. Krell
 >   >   <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
 >   >   >   >
 >     Cc: 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
 >   >   >   >
 >     Subject: RE:
 >   >   [Taxacom]
 Important note Re:
 >   >   >   >   two
 >   names
 >   >   online published
 - one
 >   >   >   new
 species
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     Frank,
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     That is
 >   >   >   >
 >     a pretty darn
 >   >   liberal
 >   >   >   >   reinterpretation
 >   >   of:
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   8.5.3.1.
 >   The
 >   >   entry in the
 >   >   >   >
 >     Official Register
 >   >   >   >   of
 >   Zoological
 >   >   Nomenclature
 must give
 >   >   >   the 
 name
 >   and Internet
 >   >   >   >   address
 >   of an
 >   >   organization
 other than
 >   >   >   the
 >   publisher that
 >   >   >   >   is
 >   intended to
 >   >   permanently
 archive the
 >   >   >   work 
 in a
 >   manner
 >   >   >   >   that
 >   preserves
 >   >   the content and
 layout,
 >   >   >   and
 is
 >   capable of
 >   >   >   >   doing
 >   so. This
 >   >   information is
 not
 >   >   >   required
 >   to  appear in
 >   >   >   >   the
 >   work
 >   >   itself.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     If we
 >   >   >   >   allow
 >   such
 >   >   dizzying levels
 of
 >   >   >   liberality,
 >   then it is
 >   >   >   >   pretty
 >   much
 >   >   "anything
 goes"!
 >   >   >   Besides,
 >   publishing
 >   >   >   >   with
 >   a publisher
 >   >   that still
 prints
 >   >   >   hard
 >   copies  effectively
 >   >   >   >   IS
 >   archiving,
 >   >   but the Code is
 clearly
 >   >   >   not
 >   concerned with
 >   >   >   >   "effectively",
 >   >   and it just
 opens
 >   >   >   up 
 a huge
 >   scope
 >   >   >   >   for
 >   everyone to
 >   >   disagree on the
 >   >   >   interpretation
 >   of the
 >   >   >   >   Code,
 >   thereby
 >   >   causing
 instability and
 >   >   >   nomenclatural
 >   chaos
 >   >   >   >   (none
 >   of which
 >   >   affects
 Zootaxa...)
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     Cheers,
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Stephen
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   --------------------------------------------
 >   >   >   >
 >     On Mon, 25/1/16,
 >   >   Frank T. Krell
 <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
 >   >   >   >
 >     wrote:
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Subject:
 >   RE:
 >   >   >   >
 >     [Taxacom] Important
 >   >   note Re:
 >   >   >   >   two
 >   names online
 >   >   published -
 >   >   >   one
 >   new species
 >   >   >   >
 >      To: "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
 >   >   >   >
 >     <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
 >   >   >   >
 >     "'Stephen Thorpe'"
 >   >   <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 >   >   >   >   "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 >   >   >   >
 >     <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
 >   >   >   >
 >     "'Doug Yanega'"
 >   >   <dyanega at ucr.edu>
 >   >   >   >
 >      Cc:
 >   >   "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
 >   >   >   >
 >      Received:
 >   >   Monday, 25
 January,
 >   >   >   2016,
 9:31
 >   >   >   >   AM
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      I would
 >   >   see the
 >   >   >   >   criteria
 >   >   >   >
 >      for
 >   >   availability
 more
 >   >   >   liberally.
 >   >   >   >   Publishing
 >   >   with a
 >   >   >   publisher
 >   that archives all its
 >   >   >   >   publications
 >   >   anyway  is
 an
 >   >   >   intention
 >   to  archive.
 >   >   >   >
 >      Being
 >   >   >   >
 >     pragmatic.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      Frank
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      Dr Frank
 >   >   >   >
 >     T. Krell
 >   >   >   >
 >      Curator
 >   >   of
 >   >   >   >   Entomology
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      Commissioner,
 International
 >   >   >   >   Commission
 >   >   on 
 Zoological
 >   >   >   Nomenclature
 >   Chair, ICZN
 >   >   >   >   ZooBank
 >   >   Committee
 >   >   >   Department
 of
 >   Zoology  Denver
 >   >   Museum
 >   >   >   >   of
 >   Nature
 >   >   & 
 Science
 >   >   >   >
 >      2001
 >   >   Colorado
 >   >   >   >   Boulevard
 >   >   >   >
 >      Denver,
 >   >   CO 80205-5798
 USA
 >   >   >   >
 >      Frank.Krell at dmns.org
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      Phone:
 >   >   (+1) (303)
 >   >   >   >
 >     370-8244
 >   >   >   >
 >      Fax: (+1)
 >   >   (303)
 >   >   >   >   331-6492
 >   >   >   >
 >      http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
 >   >   >   >
 >      lab page:
 >   >   http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      Test your
 >   >   powers of
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      observation
 in The
 >   >   >   International
 >   Exhibition
 >   >   >   >   of
 >   >   Sherlock 
 Holmes, open
 >   >   >   until
 January
 >   31. And prepare
 >   >   >   >   your
 >   >   palate for
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      Chocolate:
 The
 >   >   >   >   Exhibition,
 >   >   >   >
 >     opening February
 >   >   12.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      The
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Denver
 >   Museum of
 >   >   Nature
 >   >   >   >
 >      &
 >   >   Science
 >   >   >   >
 >     salutes the citizens
 >   >   of metro Denver
 for
 >   >   >   >   helping
 >   >   fund  arts,
 culture and
 >   >   >   science
 through
 >   their
 >   >   >   >   support
 >   of
 >   >   the 
 Scientific
 >   >   >   and
 Cultural
 >   Facilities
 >   >   >   >   District
 >   >   (SCFD).
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   -----Original
 >   >   >   >
 >     Message-----
 >   >   >   >
 >      From:
 >   >   Taxacom
 [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
 >   >   >   >
 >      On Behalf
 >   >   Of Richard Pyle
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     Sent: Sunday,
 >   >   >   >
 >      January
 >   >   >   >   24,
 >   2016 12:42
 >   >   PM
 >   >   >   >
 >      To:
 >   >   'Stephen
 >   >   >   >
 >      Thorpe'
 >   >   >   >
 >     <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
 >   >   >   >
 >      taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >   >   >   >
 >      'Doug
 >   >   Yanega' <dyanega at ucr.edu>
 >   >   >   >
 >      Cc:
 >   >   'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
 >   >   >   >
 >      Subject:
 >   >   Re: [Taxacom]
 >   >   >   Important
 note
 >   Re:
 >   >   >   >
 >     two  names
 >   >   online published
 - one
 >   >   >   new
 >   >   >   >   species
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      I can
 >   >   confirm
 >   >   >   >   that
 >   the
 >   >   >   >
 >     Archive was added
 >   >   to  this
 record
 >   >   >   >   at
 >   2016-01-23
 >   >   >   >
 >     12:21:46.330 UTC, by
 >   >   the
 >   >   >   >   same
 >   login
 >   >   account that
 >   >   >   created
 >   the original
 >   >   >   >   registration.
 >   >   Following the
 >   >   >   principle
 >   that  the work
 >   >   >   >   becomes
 >   >   available
 when  all
 >   >   >   requirements
 >   are  fulfilled
 >   >   >   >   (see
 >   my previous
 >   >   email
 reply  to
 >   >   >   Laurent
 on
 >   this  list),
 >   >   >   >   and
 >   assuming all
 >   >   other
 >   >   >   requirements
 for
 >   publication
 >   >   are
 >   >   >   >   met,
 >   my
 >   >   interpretation 
 would be
 >   >   >   that
 the date
 >   of
 >   >   >   >   publication
 >   for
 >   >   purposes of
 >   >   >   priority
 should
 >   be 23
 >   >   >   >   January
 >   >   2016. If
 numerous copies
 >   >   >   of 
 the
 >   paper edition
 >   >   >   >   were
 >   >   simultaneously
 obtainable
 >   >   >   prior
 to
 >   this date, and
 >   >   >   >   if
 >   the
 >   >   paper edition is
 in
 >   >   >   compliance
 >   with  the Code for
 >   >   >   >   published
 >   >   works printed
 on
 >   >   >   paper,
 then the
 >   date  of
 >   >   >   >   publication
 >   >   for 
 purposes of
 >   >   >   priority
 should
 >   be
 >   >   >   >   interpreted
 >   as
 >   >   the date
 on  which
 >   >   >   numerous
 copies
 >   of the
 >   >   >   >   printed
 >   edition
 >   >   were
 >   >   >   simultaneously
 >   obtainable (see
 >   >   >   >   Art.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     21.9).
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      What is,
 >   >   or is
 >   >   >   >
 >     not
 >   >   >   >
 >      visible
 >   >   through the
 >   >   >   >   ZooBank
 >   website
 >   >   is 
 irrelevant.
 >   >   >   The
 Code
 >   makes reference
 >   >   >   >   to
 >   content in
 >   >   the 
 Official
 >   >   >   Register
 >   of  Zoological
 >   >   >   >   Nomenclature,
 >   >   only a 
 subset of
 >   >   >   which
 is
 >   visible  on the
 >   >   >   >   website
 >   >   itself. 
 Future
 >   >   >   versions
 of the
 >   ZooBank  website
 >   >   >   >   (pending
 >   >   development
 >   >   >   >
 >     support) will
 >   >   include
 >   >   >   >   more
 >   >   robust and
 publicly
 >   >   >   visible
 >   documentation of when
 >   >   >   >   specific
 >   >   items were
 added
 >   >   >   or
 >   amended.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      Aloha,
 >   >   >   >
 >      Rich
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   -----Original
 >   >   Message-----
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   From:
 >   >   >   >
 >     Stephen Thorpe
 >   >   [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   Sent: Sunday,
 January 24,
 >   >   >   2016
 9:25
 >   >   >   >   AM
 >   >
 >   >   To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >   >   >   >   Doug
 >   >   Yanega 
 > Cc: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
 >   >   >   >   engel
 >   >
 >   >   Subject: Re:
 >   >   >   [Taxacom]
 >   Important  note Re:
 >   >   >   >   two
 >   names
 >   >   online
 published
 >   >   >   -
 >   >  one new species
 >   >   >   >   >
 >   >   > 
 Doug,
 >   >   >   > 
 >
 >   I'm not  sure
 >   >   that
 >   >   >   >   this
 >   was
 >   >   at all helpful!
 The
 >   >   >   addition
 of
 >   the  archive
 >   >   >   >   >
 >   info
 >   >   isn't date
 >   >   >   stamped
 >   (at least not for
 >   >   >   >   public
 >   view).
 >   >   Now  the
 >   >   >   record
 >   > misleadingly looks
 >   >   >   >   like
 >   valid
 >   >   online 
 first
 >   >   >   publication
 on 4
 >   January
 >   >   >   >   2016:
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >     http://zoobank.org/References/07554C01-DEC3-4080-A337-B1F46BC9070F
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >      > As
 >   >   far as I
 >   >   >   >
 >     know,
 >   >   >   >
 >      the print
 >   >   edition may
 >   >   >   >   not
 >   be
 >   >   >   >
 >     published yet (all
 >   >   we  >
 know is
 >   >   >   >   that
 >   it is the
 >   >   January
 >   >   >   >
 >     2016 print
 >   >   issue,
 >   >   >   >   which
 >   could
 >   >   be  >
 published
 >   >   >   in
 >   February for all we
 >   >   >   >   know).
 >   So there
 >   >   may be no way
 to
 >   >   >   >
 >   determine the true
 >   >   >   >   date
 >   of
 >   >   availability 
 for the new
 >   >   >   names.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Even
 >   if we
 >   >   > can
 get  a
 >   >   >   definitive
 date
 >   on the hard
 >   >   >   >   copy,
 >   this
 >   >   doesn't
 help  much,
 >   >   >   unless
 it is on
 >   or
 >   >   >   >   before
 >   4 January
 >   >   2016.
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   Stephen
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   --------------------------------------------
 >   >   >   >
 >      > On
 >   >   Sun, 24/1/16,
 Doug
 >   >   >   Yanega
 <dyanega at ucr.edu>
 >   >   >   >
 >      wrote:
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     >  Subject:
 >   >   >   >
 >      [Taxacom]
 >   >   Important note
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   Re:
 >   two names
 >   >   online published
 -
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      > one
 >   >   new species
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >      To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
 >   >   >   >
 >      "engel"
 >   >   <msengel at ku.edu>
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      > 
 Received: Sunday, 24
 >   >   >   January,
 >   >   >   >   2016,
 >   >   >   >
 >     7:34  PM
 >   >   >  >
 >   >   >   I
 sent a
 >   >   >   >   note
 >   to the
 >   >   authors of 
 the
 >   >   >   >
 >   Kinzelbachilla paper
 >   >   >   >   (who
 >   had
 >   >   not  >
 >   >   >   been 
 CCed
 >   before as Mike Engel
 >   >   had),
 >   >   >   >   and
 >   they said
 >   >   they  have
 >   >   >   fixed 
 >
 >   the ZooBank record
 >   >   >   >   so
 >   it  now
 >   >   includes the
 >   >   >   archive.
 >   Accordingly,  for
 >   >   >   >   >
 >   the
 >   >   public record,
 if
 >   >   >   we
 follow
 >   the  guideline as
 >   >   >   >   Rich
 >   >   suggested, 
 all
 >   >   >   >
 >   of  the  criteria
 >   >   for
 >   >   >   >   availability
 >   >   have now been
 >   >   >   fulfilled
 >   for  the
 >   >   name in
 >   >   >   >   their
 >   >   work.
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   >
 >   Most
 >   >   interesting of
 all,
 >   >   >   however,
 >   if  that they
 >   >   >   >   disagree
 >   >   regarding 
 >
 >   >   >   these 
 two
 >   papers
 >   >   describing
 >   >   >   >   the
 >   same taxon,
 >   >   despite both
 >   >   >   being
 >   from  >
 >   >   >   >   essentially
 >   the
 >   >   same type of
 >   >   >   amber
 deposit:
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     "By the way, it is
 >   >   not
 >   >   >   >   the
 >   same thing,
 >   >   the eyes, for
 >   >   >   instance,
 >   are  >
 >   >   >   >   strikingly
 >   >   different."
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      >  In
 other words,
 >   >   >   >
 >     this
 >   >   >   >   may
 >   not be a
 >   >   matter  of
 competing
 >   >   >   for
 >   priority,  >
 >   >   >   >   after
 >   all,
 >   >   as Hans had
 >   >   >   originally
 >   supposed.
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     Peace,
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      > 
 --
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      > 
 Doug
 >   >   >   >   Yanega
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     Dept. of
 >   >   >   >   Entomology
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      Entomology
 Research
 >   >   >   Museum
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >     Univ. of
 >   >   California,
 >   >   >   >   Riverside,
 >   CA
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   92521-0314
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   > 
     skype:
 >   >   >   >
 >      dyanega
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      > 
 phone:
 >   >   >   >   (951)
 >   >   >   >
 >     827-4315
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   (disclaimer:
 >   >   opinions are
 mine,
 >   >   >   >
 >     not
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >      UCR's)
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >
 >      http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   > 
     "There are
 >   some
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      enterprises
 in which a
 >   >   >   careful
 >   >   >   >
 >     disorderliness
 >   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   is the
 >   >   >   >   true
 >   >   method" - 
 >
 >   >   >   Herman
 Melville,
 >   Moby  Dick,
 >   >   >   >   Chap.
 >   >   >   >
 >     82  >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   _______________________________________________
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      > 
 Taxacom Mailing
 >   >   >   List
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >     >  Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      >  http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      > 
 The Taxacom Archive
 >   >   >   back
 to 1992
 >   >   >   >   may
 >   >   be 
 searched at:
 >   >   >   >
 >      > http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >   >   >
 >      >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      > 
 Celebrating
 >   >   >   >   29
 >   >   >   >
 >      years of
 >   >   Taxacom in
 2016.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >   _______________________________________________
 >   >   >   >
 >      Taxacom
 >   >   Mailing List
 >   >   >   >
 >      Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   >   >
 >      http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >   >   >
 >      The
 >   >   Taxacom Archive
 back to
 >   >   >   1992
 may be
 >   >   >   >   searched
 >   at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 >   >      Celebrating
 29 years
 >   >   >   >   of
 >   >   >   >
 >      Taxacom
 >   >   in 2016.
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   _______________________________________________
 >   >   >   >
 Taxacom
 >   Mailing List
 >   >   >   >
 Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   >   >
 http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >   >   >
 The Taxacom
 >   Archive back to 1992
 >   >   may be searched
 at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >   >   >
 >   >   >   >
 Celebrating
 >   29 years of Taxacom
 >   >   in 2016.
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   --
 >   >   >   __________________________________________________
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   Michael
 A. Ivie,
 >   Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   US
 Post Office
 >   Address:
 >   >   >   Montana
 >   Entomology Collection
 >   >   >   Marsh
 Labs, Room
 >   50
 >   >   >   1911
 West
 >   Lincoln Street
 >   >   >   Montana
 State
 >   University
 >   >   >   Bozeman,
 MT
 >   59717
 >   >   >   USA
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   UPS,
 FedEx, DHL
 >   Address:
 >   >   >   Montana
 >   Entomology Collection
 >   >   >   Marsh
 Labs, Room
 >   50
 >   >   >   1911
 West
 >   Lincoln Street
 >   >   >   Montana
 State
 >   University
 >   >   >   Bozeman,
 MT
 >   59718
 >   >   >   USA
 >   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   (406)
 994-4610
 >   (voice)
 >   >   >   (406)
 994-6029
 >   (FAX)
 >   >   >   mivie at montana.edu
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   _______________________________________________
 >   >   >   Taxacom
 Mailing
 >   List
 >   >   >   Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   >   http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >   >   The
 Taxacom
 >   Archive back to 1992 may
 >   >   be searched at:
 http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >   >
 >   >   >   Celebrating
 29
 >   years of Taxacom in
 >   >   2016.
 >   >   >
 >   >   > .
 >   >   >
 >   >
 >   >   --
 >   >   __________________________________________________
 >   >
 >   >   Michael A. Ivie,
 Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
 >   >
 >   >   US Post Office
 Address:
 >   >   Montana
 Entomology Collection
 >   >   Marsh Labs, Room
 50
 >   >   1911 West
 Lincoln Street
 >   >   Montana State
 University
 >   >   Bozeman, MT
 59717
 >   >   USA
 >   >
 >   >   UPS, FedEx, DHL
 Address:
 >   >   Montana
 Entomology Collection
 >   >   Marsh Labs, Room
 50
 >   >   1911 West
 Lincoln Street
 >   >   Montana State
 University
 >   >   Bozeman, MT
 59718
 >   >   USA
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >   (406) 994-4610
 (voice)
 >   >   (406) 994-6029
 (FAX)
 >   >   mivie at montana.edu
 >   >
 >   >
 >   > .
 >   >
 >   
 >   --
 >   __________________________________________________
 >   
 >   Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
 >   
 >   US Post Office Address:
 >   Montana Entomology Collection
 >   Marsh Labs, Room 50
 >   1911 West Lincoln Street
 >   Montana State University
 >   Bozeman, MT 59717
 >   USA
 >   
 >   UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 >   Montana Entomology Collection
 >   Marsh Labs, Room 50
 >   1911 West Lincoln Street
 >   Montana State University
 >   Bozeman, MT 59718
 >   USA
 >   
 >   
 >   (406) 994-4610 (voice)
 >   (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 >   mivie at montana.edu
 >   
 >
 > .
 >
 
 -- 
 __________________________________________________
 
 Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
 
 US Post Office Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 1911 West Lincoln Street
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59717
 USA
 
 UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 1911 West Lincoln Street
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59718
 USA
 
 
 (406) 994-4610 (voice)
 (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 mivie at montana.edu
 



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