[Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
Stephen Thorpe
stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sun Jan 24 17:37:24 CST 2016
If you had read my posts properly, Mike, you would already know the answer to that! Which came first? Zootaxa or Amendment?
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016, 12:23 PM
Stephen,
Why is it not more likely, in the face of first person
testimony from
those present, that Zootaxa was optimized TO THE AMENDMENT,
and not the
other way around, which you cling to as a drowning man to a
piece of
styrofoam? Seems to me that a publisher that looks at
the amendment,
and sets their journal to conform to it should be put up on
a pedestal
as an example to the world, not accused of nefarious insider
trading.
Mike
On 1/24/2016 2:26 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> Other publishers were no doubt consulted to some
extent, yes. Neverthless, we have ended up in a situation
whereby the electronic amendment is optimised to the Zootaxa
publishing model, and many other publishers fall into a
messy and indeterminate basket. Note that the Zootaxa
publishing model wasn't created so as to be fully Code
compliant with the electronic amendment. The Zootaxa model
predates the amendment by several years. At the very least,
Zhang had inside knowledge of what was going to result from
the amendment well ahead of time, and thereby had an
advantage over other publishers.
>
> These are facts Frank. I cannot be wrong. Not unless
you can offer a convincing alternative explanation as to why
the electronic amendment fits Zootaxa hand in glove, while
other publishers are left in a gray zone. Well?
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/1/16, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Important note
Re: two names online published - one new
species
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
"deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
<deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
"taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
"'Doug Yanega'" <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Cc: "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016,
10:16 AM
>
> To you. But you are
> wrong. You won't be convinced
otherwise, so it is
> useless to repeat that other
publishers were consulted
> etc.
> You believe what you want anyway.
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
>
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2016 2:11
PM
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> 'Doug Yanega' <dyanega at ucr.edu>;
> Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> Cc: 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Important note
Re: two
> names online published - one new
species
>
> Frank,
>
> Zootaxa
> is very relevant to this whole thread
and wider
> discussion.
>
> Fact (1): there
> are significant problems with the
electronic amendment (no,
> the sky isn't falling down, people
aren't running
> for the hills in droves, etc., but in
the context of
> zoological nomenclature there are
significant problems),
> none of which affect the Zootaxa
publishing model.
>
> Fact (2): the owner of Zootaxa
> is a prominent member of the ICZN who
had a significant part
> to play in the development of the
electronic amendment.
>
> Now, you can claim, if you
> really want to, that facts (1) and (2)
are independent,
> coincidence, or whatever, but to me it
looks like a classic
> case of a COI. The best interests of
zoological nomenclature
> as a whole are not necessarily the
best interests of Zootaxa
> in particular. You make yourself look
foolish if you refuse
> to acknowledge the problem here. You
might claim that the
> COI is outweighed by other more
important factors (like,
> maybe, keeping the ICZN viable and
running), but it is
> really self-evident that the
electronic amendment was
> optimised for the Zootaxa publishing
model and to hell with
> any other alternative. There is no
room for doubt regarding
> the Code compliance of Zootaxa
articles, but articles from
> many other publishers are very much in
the "how liberal
> do you feel" bucket, and it isn't
going to be long
> before taxonomists start renaming taxa
already named by
> others in these dubiously valid
publications (just like
> Scott Thomson renames taxa from
Australasian Journal of
> Herpetology). All this is not good! It
isn't a corrupt
> conspiracy, or anything of the sort.
It is just not good for
> zoological nomenclature, not good for
taxonomy, and not good
> for science.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/1/16, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names
online published -
> one new species
> To: "Stephen
> Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> "'Doug Yanega'" <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Cc: "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016, 9:40
AM
>
> As expected.
> Still being pragmatic.
> And
> Zootaxa again, out of context, but in
your
> mind all the time.
>
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
> From: Stephen Thorpe
> [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
>
> Sent: Sunday, January 24,
> 2016 1:37 PM
> To: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> 'Stephen Thorpe' <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> 'Doug Yanega' <dyanega at ucr.edu>;
> Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> Cc: 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> two names online published - one
new species
>
> Frank,
>
> That is
> a pretty darn liberal
> reinterpretation of:
>
>
> 8.5.3.1. The entry in the
> Official Register
> of Zoological Nomenclature must give
the name and Internet
> address of an organization other than
the publisher that
> is intended to permanently archive the
work in a manner
> that preserves the content and layout,
and is capable of
> doing so. This information is not
required to appear in
> the work itself.
>
> If we
> allow such dizzying levels of
liberality, then it is
> pretty much "anything goes"!
Besides, publishing
> with a publisher that still prints
hard copies effectively
> IS archiving, but the Code is clearly
not concerned with
> "effectively", and it just opens
up a huge scope
> for everyone to disagree on the
interpretation of the
> Code, thereby causing instability and
nomenclatural chaos
> (none of which affects Zootaxa...)
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Stephen
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/1/16, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> two names online published -
one new species
> To: "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> "'Stephen Thorpe'" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> "'Doug Yanega'" <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Cc: "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> Received: Monday, 25 January,
2016, 9:31
> AM
>
> I would see the
> criteria
> for availability more
liberally.
> Publishing with a
publisher that archives all its
> publications anyway is an
intention to archive.
> Being
> pragmatic.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> Dr Frank
> T. Krell
> Curator of
> Entomology
> Commissioner, International
> Commission on Zoological
Nomenclature Chair, ICZN
> ZooBank Committee
Department of Zoology Denver Museum
> of Nature & Science
> 2001 Colorado
> Boulevard
> Denver, CO 80205-5798 USA
> Frank.Krell at dmns.org
>
> Phone: (+1) (303)
> 370-8244
> Fax: (+1) (303)
> 331-6492
> http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
> lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
>
> Test your powers of
> observation in The
International Exhibition
> of Sherlock Holmes, open
until January 31. And prepare
> your palate for
> Chocolate: The
> Exhibition,
> opening February 12.
>
> The
>
> Denver Museum of Nature
> & Science
> salutes the citizens of metro Denver for
> helping fund arts, culture and
science through their
> support of the Scientific
and Cultural Facilities
> District (SCFD).
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
> From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> On Behalf Of Richard Pyle
>
>
> Sent: Sunday,
> January
> 24, 2016 12:42 PM
> To: 'Stephen
> Thorpe'
> <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> 'Doug Yanega' <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Cc: 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Important note Re:
> two names online published - one
new
> species
>
> I can confirm
> that the
> Archive was added to this record
> at 2016-01-23
> 12:21:46.330 UTC, by the
> same login account that
created the original
> registration. Following the
principle that the work
> becomes available when all
requirements are fulfilled
> (see my previous email reply to
Laurent on this list),
> and assuming all other
requirements for publication are
> met, my interpretation would be
that the date of
> publication for purposes of
priority should be 23
> January 2016. If numerous copies
of the paper edition
> were simultaneously obtainable
prior to this date, and
> if the paper edition is in
compliance with the Code for
> published works printed on
paper, then the date of
> publication for purposes of
priority should be
> interpreted as the date on which
numerous copies of the
> printed edition were
simultaneously obtainable (see
> Art.
>
> 21.9).
>
> What is, or is
> not
> visible through the
> ZooBank website is irrelevant.
The Code makes reference
> to content in the Official
Register of Zoological
> Nomenclature, only a subset of
which is visible on the
> website itself. Future
versions of the ZooBank website
> (pending development
> support) will include
> more robust and publicly
visible documentation of when
> specific items were added
or amended.
>
>
> Aloha,
> Rich
>
> >
>
> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> > Sent: Sunday, January 24,
2016 9:25
> AM > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> Doug Yanega > Cc: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> engel > Subject: Re:
[Taxacom] Important note Re:
> two names online published
- > one new species
> > > Doug,
> > I'm not sure that
> this was at all helpful! The
addition of the archive
> > info isn't date
stamped (at least not for
> public view). Now the
record > misleadingly looks
> like valid online first
publication on 4 January
> 2016:
> >
> http://zoobank.org/References/07554C01-DEC3-4080-A337-B1F46BC9070F
> >
> > As far as I
> know,
> the print edition may
> not be
> published yet (all we > know is
> that it is the January
> 2016 print issue,
> which could be > published
in February for all we
> know). So there may be no way to
> determine the true
> date of availability for the new
names.
>
> Even if we > can get a
definitive date on the hard
> copy, this doesn't help much,
unless it is on or
> before 4 January 2016.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 24/1/16, Doug
Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> wrote:
> >
>
> > Subject:
> [Taxacom] Important note
>
> Re: two names online published -
>
> > one new species
>
> >
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
> "engel" <msengel at ku.edu>
> > Received: Sunday, 24
January,
> 2016,
> 7:34 PM > >
I sent a
> note to the authors of the
> Kinzelbachilla paper
> (who had not >
been CCed before as Mike Engel had),
> and they said they have
fixed > the ZooBank record
> so it now includes the
archive. Accordingly, for
> > the public record, if
we follow the guideline as
> Rich suggested, all
> of the criteria for
> availability have now been
fulfilled for the name in
> their work.
> >
>
> > Most interesting of all,
however, if that they
> disagree regarding >
these two papers describing
> the same taxon, despite both
being from >
> essentially the same type of
amber deposit:
> >
> >
>
> "By the way, it is not
> the same thing, the eyes, for
instance, are >
> strikingly different."
> >
> > In other words,
> this
> may not be a matter of competing
for priority, >
> after all, as Hans had
originally supposed.
> >
>
>
> >
> Peace,
> >
> > --
> > Doug
> Yanega
>
> Dept. of
> Entomology
> >
>
> Entomology Research
Museum
> >
> Univ. of California,
> Riverside, CA
>
>
> 92521-0314
> >
skype:
> dyanega
> > phone:
> (951)
> 827-4315
>
> (disclaimer: opinions are mine,
> not
> >
> UCR's)
> >
http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
> >
"There are some
> enterprises in which a
careful
> disorderliness >
is the
> true method" - >
Herman Melville, Moby Dick,
> Chap.
> 82 > >
>
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>
>
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--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
US Post Office Address:
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Marsh Labs, Room 50
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Montana State University
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USA
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