[Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
Richard Pyle
deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
Sun Jan 24 15:49:36 CST 2016
Stephen,
I was in the room when the original outline for the Amendment was drafted. So was Frank. So were most ICZN Commissioners of the time. So were several other non-Commissioners. You were not in the room. Moreover, for nearly FOUR YEARS the public had access to the draft Amendment before it was ratified. Many comments were received, and the Amendment was modified in response to those Comments. Throughout that entire Process, Zhi-Qiang had precisely the same influence over the shaping of the Amendment wording as every other Commissioner. I was very actively involved with the discussions concerning the drafting and re-drafting of the Amendment wording, both in public forums and in private ICZN discussions. Zhi-Qiang, like all Commissioners and like many non-commissioners, provided valuable suggestions and insights into the drafting and re-drafting of the Amendment. At no time was there any discussion that in any way favored one publishing model over another, especially not from Zhi-Qiang. There was nothing in the Amendment related to publishing models that was not openly available to the general public for years prior to the final ratification. Therefore, it is not possible that any Commissioner had any sort of "inside knowledge" of what was going to result from the Amendment, any more-so than any member of the public. As Frank indicated, many other publishers were consulted throughout the entire process.
As Frank suggested, I doubt you will ever change your opinions about the validity of you conspiracy theories, no matter how demonstrably wrong they are.
Aloha,
Rich
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2016 11:27 AM
> To: Stephen Thorpe; deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; 'Doug Yanega'; Frank T. Krell
> Cc: 'engel'
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one
> new species
>
> Other publishers were no doubt consulted to some extent, yes. Neverthless,
> we have ended up in a situation whereby the electronic amendment is
> optimised to the Zootaxa publishing model, and many other publishers fall
> into a messy and indeterminate basket. Note that the Zootaxa publishing
> model wasn't created so as to be fully Code compliant with the electronic
> amendment. The Zootaxa model predates the amendment by several years.
> At the very least, Zhang had inside knowledge of what was going to result
> from the amendment well ahead of time, and thereby had an advantage over
> other publishers.
>
> These are facts Frank. I cannot be wrong. Not unless you can offer a
> convincing alternative explanation as to why the electronic amendment fits
> Zootaxa hand in glove, while other publishers are left in a gray zone. Well?
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/1/16, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published -
> one new species
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org" <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "'Doug
> Yanega'" <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Cc: "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016, 10:16 AM
>
> To you. But you are
> wrong. You won't be convinced otherwise, so it is useless to repeat that
> other publishers were consulted etc.
> You believe what you want anyway.
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
>
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2016 2:11 PM
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> deepreef at bishopmuseum.org; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; 'Doug
> Yanega' <dyanega at ucr.edu>; Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> Cc: 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published -
> one new species
>
> Frank,
>
> Zootaxa
> is very relevant to this whole thread and wider discussion.
>
> Fact (1): there
> are significant problems with the electronic amendment (no, the sky isn't
> falling down, people aren't running for the hills in droves, etc., but in the
> context of zoological nomenclature there are significant problems), none of
> which affect the Zootaxa publishing model.
>
> Fact (2): the owner of Zootaxa
> is a prominent member of the ICZN who had a significant part to play in the
> development of the electronic amendment.
>
> Now, you can claim, if you
> really want to, that facts (1) and (2) are independent, coincidence, or
> whatever, but to me it looks like a classic case of a COI. The best interests of
> zoological nomenclature as a whole are not necessarily the best interests of
> Zootaxa in particular. You make yourself look foolish if you refuse to
> acknowledge the problem here. You might claim that the COI is outweighed
> by other more important factors (like, maybe, keeping the ICZN viable and
> running), but it is really self-evident that the electronic amendment was
> optimised for the Zootaxa publishing model and to hell with any other
> alternative. There is no room for doubt regarding the Code compliance of
> Zootaxa articles, but articles from many other publishers are very much in
> the "how liberal do you feel" bucket, and it isn't going to be long before
> taxonomists start renaming taxa already named by others in these dubiously
> valid publications (just like Scott Thomson renames taxa from Australasian
> Journal of Herpetology). All this is not good! It isn't a corrupt conspiracy, or
> anything of the sort. It is just not good for zoological nomenclature, not
> good for taxonomy, and not good for science.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/1/16, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new
> species
> To: "Stephen
> Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> "'Doug Yanega'" <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Cc: "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016, 9:40 AM
>
> As expected.
> Still being pragmatic.
> And
> Zootaxa again, out of context, but in your mind all the time.
>
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
> From: Stephen Thorpe
> [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
>
> Sent: Sunday, January 24,
> 2016 1:37 PM
> To: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> 'Stephen Thorpe' <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; 'Doug Yanega' <dyanega at ucr.edu>; Frank
> T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> Cc: 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> two names online published - one new species
>
> Frank,
>
> That is
> a pretty darn liberal
> reinterpretation of:
>
>
> 8.5.3.1. The entry in the
> Official Register
> of Zoological Nomenclature must give the name and Internet address of an
> organization other than the publisher that is intended to permanently
> archive the work in a manner that preserves the content and layout, and
> is capable of doing so. This information is not required to appear in the
> work itself.
>
> If we
> allow such dizzying levels of liberality, then it is pretty much "anything
> goes"! Besides, publishing with a publisher that still prints hard
> copies effectively IS archiving, but the Code is clearly not concerned with
> "effectively", and it just opens up a huge scope for everyone to disagree on
> the interpretation of the Code, thereby causing instability and
> nomenclatural chaos (none of which affects Zootaxa...)
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Stephen
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/1/16, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> two names online published - one new species
> To: "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> "'Stephen Thorpe'" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> "'Doug Yanega'" <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Cc: "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016, 9:31 AM
>
> I would see the
> criteria
> for availability more liberally.
> Publishing with a publisher that archives all its publications anyway is an
> intention to archive.
> Being
> pragmatic.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> Dr Frank
> T. Krell
> Curator of
> Entomology
> Commissioner, International
> Commission on Zoological Nomenclature Chair, ICZN
> ZooBank Committee Department of Zoology Denver Museum of Nature
> & Science
> 2001 Colorado
> Boulevard
> Denver, CO 80205-5798 USA
> Frank.Krell at dmns.org
>
> Phone: (+1) (303)
> 370-8244
> Fax: (+1) (303)
> 331-6492
> http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
> lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
>
> Test your powers of
> observation in The International Exhibition of Sherlock Holmes, open until
> January 31. And prepare your palate for
> Chocolate: The
> Exhibition,
> opening February 12.
>
> The
>
> Denver Museum of Nature
> & Science
> salutes the citizens of metro Denver for helping fund arts, culture and
> science through their support of the Scientific and Cultural Facilities District
> (SCFD).
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
> From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> On Behalf Of Richard Pyle
>
>
> Sent: Sunday,
> January
> 24, 2016 12:42 PM
> To: 'Stephen
> Thorpe'
> <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> 'Doug Yanega' <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Cc: 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> two names online published - one new
> species
>
> I can confirm
> that the
> Archive was added to this record
> at 2016-01-23
> 12:21:46.330 UTC, by the
> same login account that created the original registration. Following the
> principle that the work becomes available when all requirements
> are fulfilled (see my previous email reply to Laurent on this list), and
> assuming all other requirements for publication are met, my
> interpretation would be that the date of publication for purposes of priority
> should be 23 January 2016. If numerous copies of the paper edition
> were simultaneously obtainable prior to this date, and if the paper edition
> is in compliance with the Code for published works printed on paper, then
> the date of publication for purposes of priority should be interpreted as the
> date on which numerous copies of the printed edition were simultaneously
> obtainable (see Art.
>
> 21.9).
>
> What is, or is
> not
> visible through the
> ZooBank website is irrelevant. The Code makes reference to content in
> the Official Register of Zoological Nomenclature, only a subset of which is
> visible on the website itself. Future versions of the ZooBank website
> (pending development
> support) will include
> more robust and publicly visible documentation of when specific items
> were added or amended.
>
>
> Aloha,
> Rich
>
> >
>
> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2016 9:25 AM > To:
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; Doug Yanega > Cc:
> deepreef at bishopmuseum.org; engel > Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
> Important note Re:
> two names online published - > one new species > > Doug, > > I'm
> not sure that this was at all helpful! The addition of the archive > info isn't
> date stamped (at least not for public view). Now the record > misleadingly
> looks like valid online first publication on 4 January
> 2016:
> >
> http://zoobank.org/References/07554C01-DEC3-4080-A337-B1F46BC9070F
> >
> > As far as I
> know,
> the print edition may
> not be
> published yet (all we > know is
> that it is the January
> 2016 print issue,
> which could be > published in February for all we know). So there may be
> no way to > determine the true date of availability for the new names.
>
> Even if we > can get a definitive date on the hard copy, this doesn't
> help much, unless it is on or before 4 January 2016.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 24/1/16, Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> wrote:
> >
>
> > Subject:
> [Taxacom] Important note
>
> Re: two names online published -
>
> > one new species
>
> >
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
> "engel" <msengel at ku.edu>
> > Received: Sunday, 24 January,
> 2016,
> 7:34 PM > > I sent a
> note to the authors of the > Kinzelbachilla paper
> (who had not > been CCed before as Mike Engel had),
> and they said they have fixed > the ZooBank record
> so it now includes the archive. Accordingly, for
> > the public record, if we follow the guideline as
> Rich suggested, all > of the criteria for
> availability have now been fulfilled for the name in
> their work.
> >
>
> > Most interesting of all, however, if that they
> disagree regarding > these two papers describing
> the same taxon, despite both being from >
> essentially the same type of amber deposit:
> >
> >
>
> "By the way, it is not
> the same thing, the eyes, for instance, are >
> strikingly different."
> >
> > In other words,
> this
> may not be a matter of competing for priority, >
> after all, as Hans had originally supposed.
> >
>
>
> >
> Peace,
> >
> > --
> > Doug
> Yanega
>
> Dept. of
> Entomology
> >
>
> Entomology Research Museum
> >
> Univ. of California,
> Riverside, CA
>
>
> 92521-0314
> > skype:
> dyanega
> > phone:
> (951)
> 827-4315
>
> (disclaimer: opinions are mine,
> not
> >
> UCR's)
> > http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
> > "There are some
> enterprises in which a careful
> disorderliness > is the
> true method" - > Herman Melville, Moby Dick,
> Chap.
> 82 > >
>
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>
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