[Taxacom] two names online published - one new species

Stephen Thorpe stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Fri Jan 22 16:59:43 CST 2016


>Read what it says, not what you want it to say<

It may come as a shock, Mike, but the English language does not have a perfectly well defined one-to-one correlation between what is said and what is meant (which is one of the main reasons why the Code can be so problematic). Language is inherently vague and ambiguous. My interpretation of what is meant is a perfectly valid one, but this is a minor side issue at best!

Stephen


--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 23/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] two names online published - one new species
 To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 Received: Saturday, 23 January, 2016, 11:54 AM
 
 It ("similarly") applies to the
 appointment to the positions. After the 
 matter of appointment is finished, the mater of employment
 is taken up, 
 and restricted to the E.S.   Read what it
 says, not what you want it to 
 say. Also, the E.S. "may be an employee" of the Trust, which
 no longer 
 exists.  Luckily, there are other appropriate bodies,
 such as the 
 University of Singapore!
 
 
 On 1/22/2016 3:39 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
 > Well, use of the word "similarly", suggests that what
 applies to one applies equally to the other (in the context
 of Art. 9). Why else is that word there?
 >
 > --------------------------------------------
 > On Sat, 23/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
 wrote:
 >
 >   Subject: Re: [Taxacom] two names
 online published - one new species
 >   To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   Received: Saturday, 23 January, 2016,
 11:29 AM
 >   
 >   He is NOT the Executive Secretary, he
 >   is the Secretary-General! Two
 >   different positions, no provision for
 employment is made for
 >   the S-G.
 >   You nitpick on everything anyone else
 says, try to keep up
 >   on what you
 >   say.  Also, there does not seem
 to be any conflict of
 >   interest
 >   definition for the ICZN, so that would
 presumably not apply
 >   anyway.
 >   
 >   On 1/22/2016 3:20 PM, Stephen Thorpe
 wrote:
 >   > "The Executive Secretary may be
 an employee of an
 >   appropriate body, such as the
 International Trust for
 >   Zoological  Nomenclature"
 >   >
 >   > One might question the
 appropriateness of an Executive
 >   Secretary being the owner of a
 commercial publishing house
 >   whose published output is subject to
 regulation by the
 >   International Code of Zoological
 Nomenclature!
 >   >
 >   > Stephen
 >   >
 >   >
 --------------------------------------------
 >   > On Sat, 23/1/16, Michael A. Ivie
 <mivie at montana.edu>
 >   wrote:
 >   >
 >   >   Subject: Re:
 [Taxacom] two names
 >   online published - one new species
 >   >   To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   Received:
 Saturday, 23 January, 2016,
 >   10:49 AM
 >   >
 >   >   Oops, looked at
 the wrong
 >   >   constitution,
 ITZN, not ICZN.
 >   There is a
 >   >   Secretary-General
 possible, but the
 >   position has no duties
 >   >   specified,
 >   >   and certainly is
 not head of
 >   anything.
 >   >
 >   >   "Article 9.
 Secretariat.  The
 >   Council may appoint an
 >   >   Executive
 Secretary
 >   >   for such a term
 and with such duties
 >   as may be fixed in the
 >   >   Bylaws; a
 >   >   member of the
 Commission may be
 >   appointed similarly as
 >   >   Secretary-General.
 The Executive
 >   Secretary may be an
 >   >   employee of an
 >   >   appropriate
 body, such as the
 >   International Trust for
 >   >   Zoological
 >   >   Nomenclature."
 >   >
 >   >   Mike
 >   >
 >   >   On 1/22/2016
 2:32 PM, Michael A. Ivie
 >   wrote:
 >   >   > Well,
 actually, if you consult
 >   the Constitution and
 >   >   By-Laws of the
 >   >   > ICZN there
 is no such thing as a
 >   Secretary-General, so
 >   >   a person with
 >   >   > that title
 cannot actually be
 >   head of anything.
 >   >   Stephen, don't
 >   >   > believe
 everything you read on
 >   the internet!.
 >   >   >
 >   >   > Mike
 >   >   >
 >   >   > On
 1/22/2016 2:29 PM, Stephen
 >   Thorpe wrote:
 >   >   >> Well,
 the article I linked to
 >   states [quote]One of
 >   >   his top
 priorities
 >   >   >> in his
 new job would be to
 >   ensure the
 >   >   commission’s
 long term
 >   >   >>
 viability[unquote]
 >   >   >>
 >   >   >> So,
 what does the president
 >   do, then?
 >   >   >>
 >   >   >> It is
 really splitting hairs
 >   to criticize my use of
 >   >   the vague term
 >   >   >> "head
 of"! It is near enough
 >   to make my point.
 >   >   >>
 >   >   >>
 Stephen
 >   >   >>
 >   >   >>
 >   --------------------------------------------
 >   >   >> On Sat,
 23/1/16, Michael A.
 >   Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
 >   >   wrote:
 >   >   >>
 >   >   >>   Subject:
 Re:
 >   [Taxacom] two names
 >   >   online published
 - one new species
 >   >   >>   To:
 taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   >>   Received:
 >   Saturday, 23 January,
 >   >   2016, 10:10 AM
 >   >   >> 
    Isn't
 >   the head of the ICZN
 >   >   a
 >   >   >>   President?
 >   Did someone
 >   >   change the
 By-Laws?
 >   >   >> 
    On
 >   1/22/2016 2:03 PM,
 >   >   Stephen Thorpe
 wrote:
 >   >   >>   >
 Rich,
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 I'm
 >   going to have to reply to
 >   >   some of your
 comments
 >   >   >>   individually.
 >   Firstly:
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >>
 >   Finally, can you
 >   >   elaborate on
 what you mean by this
 >   >   >>   statement:
 >   >   >>   >>
 >   "BTW, congrats to Z.-Q.
 >   >   Zhang on his
 recent
 >   >   >>   appointment
 >   as head of the ICZN"
 >   >   >>   >>
 ?
 >   >   >>   >
 This is
 >   what I mean:
 >   >   >> http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/about/news/snippets/researcher-in-nz-first
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 Looks
 >   like I do know
 >   >   something that
 you don't! :)
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 >   Stephen
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   --------------------------------------------
 >   >   >>   >
 On Sat,
 >   23/1/16, Richard Pyle
 >   >   <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
 >   >   >>   wrote:
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   Subject:
 >   RE:
 >   >   [Taxacom] two
 names
 >   >   >>   online
 >   published - one new
 >   >   species
 >   >   >>   >   To:
 >   >   "'Stephen
 Thorpe'" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 >   >   >>   taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
 >   >   >>   "'engel'"
 >   <msengel at ku.edu>,
 >   >   >>   "'Doug
 >   Yanega'" <dyanega at ucr.edu>
 >   >   >>   >   Received:
 >   >   Saturday, 23
 January, 2016,
 >   >   >>   9:55
 AM
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   Hi
 >   Stephen,
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   Let
 >   me
 >   >   clarify... I
 scale the
 >   >   >>   >   magnitude
 >   of
 >   >   the issue using
 a
 >   >   >>   baseline
 of
 >   paper-based
 >   >   >>   >   publications
 >   >   and/or the
 situation as
 >   >   >>   it
 existed
 >   prior to the
 >   >   >>   >   amendment
 >   >   for electronic
 >   >   >>   publication.
 >   I often see
 >   >   lots of
 >   >   >>   >   frantic
 >   >   arm-waving and
 other forms of
 >   >   >>   virtual
 >   panic about
 >   >   >>   >   one
 >   crisis
 >   >   or another
 related to
 >   >   >>   electronic
 >   publication.
 >   >   >>   >   To
 >   be sure,
 >   >   there are some
 new
 >   >   >>   problems
 >   that have been
 >   >   >>   >   introduced
 >   >   with the
 Amendment, and
 >   >   >>   CERTAINLY
 >   the Amendment
 >   >   >>   >   did
 >   not
 >   >   solve all of the
 problems that
 >   >   >>   existed
 >   before it
 >   >   >>   >   (nor
 >   could
 >   >   it have). 
 As Doug has
 >   >   >>   already
 >   alluded to, the
 >   >   >>   >   Amendment
 >   >   represents a
 compromise
 >   >   >>   between
 many
 >   different
 >   >   >>   >   possible
 >   >   approaches, and
 ultimately
 >   >   >>   reflects
 the
 >   best
 >   >   >>   >   consensus
 >   of
 >   >   the community at
 the
 >   >   >>   time.
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   One
 >   thing
 >   >   the Amendment
 has done is
 >   >   >>   shine
 a
 >   >   >>   >   spotlight
 >   on
 >   >   problems that
 have
 >   >   >>   existed
 for
 >   a long time, but
 >   >   >>   >   which
 >   people
 >   >   scarcely
 noticed
 >   >   >>   before.
 >   That they went
 >   >   >>   >   unnoticed
 >   >   before doesn't
 mean that
 >   >   >>   they
 were
 >   any less
 >   >   >>   >   serious
 >   >   before; only
 that many of us
 >   >   >>   were
 >   blissfully
 >   >   >>   >   ignorant.
 >   >   One might argue
 that
 >   >   >>   an
 >   "ignorance is
 >   >   >>   >   bliss"
 >   >   approach is
 warranted, but it
 >   >   >>   seems
 >   incompatible
 >   >   >>   >   to
 >   basic
 >   >   scientific
 principles that we
 >   >   >>   taxonomists
 >   would
 >   >   >>   >   generally
 >   >   like to adhere
 to.
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   So,
 >   here are
 >   >   some examples of
 things
 >   >   >>   that
 are
 >   >   >>   >   helpful:
 >   >   >>   >   -
 >   Specific
 >   >   observations
 about how
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   existing
 >   >   rules fail in
 particular
 >   >   >>   circumstances
 >   >   >>   >   -
 >   >   Constructive
 suggestions on how the
 >   >   >>   next
 >   >   >>   >   edition
 >   of
 >   >   the Code can be
 improved to
 >   >   >>   minimize
 >   such
 >   >   >>   >   failures
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   And
 >   here are
 >   >   some
 >   >   >>   >   examples
 >   of
 >   >   things that are
 not
 >   >   >>   helpful:
 >   >   >>   >   -
 >   >   >>   >   Frantic
 >   >   arm-waving and
 hyperbolic
 >   >   >>   exclamations
 >   about how the
 >   >   >>   >   nomenclatural
 >   >   sky is falling.
 >   >   >>   >   -
 >   >   >>   >   Misrepresentation
 >   >   of problems with
 the
 >   >   >>   Code
 that
 >   have been
 >   >   >>   >   illuminated
 >   >   by the Amendment
 for
 >   >   >>   electronic
 >   publication as
 >   >   >>   >   though
 >   they
 >   >   were *caused* by
 the
 >   >   >>   Amendment
 >   (when in most
 >   >   >>   >   cases
 >   they
 >   >   were, in fact,
 extant prior
 >   >   >>   to
 the
 >   Amendment, and
 >   >   >>   >   in
 >   many
 >   >   cases at least
 mitigated to
 >   >   >>   some
 extent
 >   by the
 >   >   >>   >   Amendment).
 >   >   >>   >   -
 >   >   Representing
 personal
 >   >   >>   >   interpretations
 >   >   about how the
 Code
 >   >   >>   "should"
 >   be,
 >   >   >>   >   with
 >   what is
 >   >   actually written
 in the
 >   >   >>   Code.
 >   >   >>   >   -
 >   >   >>   >   Utterly
 >   >   bogus (and,
 frankly,
 >   >   >>   childish)
 >   accusations that
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   >   Amendment was
 somehow nefariously
 >   >   >>   influenced
 >   by the
 >   >   >>   >   needs/demands
 >   >   of the
 for-profit
 >   >   >>   publishing
 >   community.
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   Note:
 >   >   Stephen, I am
 not
 >   >   >>   >   necessarily
 >   >   accusing you of
 all these
 >   >   >>   things;
 but
 >   I've
 >   >   >>   >   seen
 >   >   examples of them
 fly through
 >   >   >>   Taxacom
 and
 >   other venues
 >   >   >>   >   on
 >   a regular
 >   >   basis.
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   In
 >   >   >>   >   answer
 >   to
 >   >   some of your
 specific
 >   >   >>   questions:
 >   every edit to
 >   >   >>   >   every
 >   record
 >   >   in ZooBank is
 logged with
 >   >   >>   information
 >   on what
 >   >   >>   >   field
 >   was
 >   >   changed, what
 the previous
 >   >   >>   and
 new
 >   values are, who
 >   >   >>   >   changed
 >   >   them, and
 exactly (to the
 >   >   >>   nearest
 >   millisecond, UTC
 >   >   >>   >   time)
 >   when
 >   >   the change was
 made. So,
 >   >   >>   for
 example,
 >   if you
 >   >   >>   >   edited
 >   >   archive info
 into the Zoobank
 >   >   >>   record
 for
 >   Systematic
 >   >   >>   >   Entomology,
 >   >   there would be a
 record of
 >   >   >>   the
 fact
 >   that you
 >   >   >>   >   edited
 >   it,
 >   >   and exactly when
 you edited
 >   >   >>   it.
 Not all
 >   of this
 >   >   >>   >   information
 >   >   is visible on
 the ZooBank
 >   >   >>   website,
 but
 >   as soon
 >   >   >>   >   as
 >   we
 >   >   receive the next
 round of
 >   >   >>   ZooBank
 >   development funding,
 >   >   >>   >   much
 >   of it
 >   >   will be added.
 In the
 >   >   >>   meantime,
 I
 >   am happy to
 >   >   >>   >   retrieve
 >   and
 >   >   provide this
 information
 >   >   >>   for
 any
 >   field of any
 >   >   >>   >   record.
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   Finally,
 >   can
 >   >   you
 >   >   >>   >   elaborate
 >   on
 >   >   what you mean by
 this
 >   >   >>   statement:
 >   >   >>   >   "BTW,
 >   >   congrats to
 Z.-Q. Zhang on his
 >   >   >>   >   recent
 >   >   appointment as
 head of the
 >   >   >>   ICZN"
 >   >   >>   >   ?
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   Either
 >   you
 >   >   >>   >   know
 >   >   something that I
 don't, or this
 >   >   >>   serves
 as
 >   one more
 >   >   >>   >   example
 >   >   reflecting the
 reliability of
 >   >   >>   your
 >   insights on the
 >   >   >>   >   ICZN
 >   and its
 >   >   functions.
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   Thanks,
 >   and
 >   >   Aloha,
 >   >   >>   >   Rich
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   Richard
 >   L.
 >   >   >>   >   Pyle,
 >   PhD
 >   >   >>   >   Database
 >   >   Coordinator for
 Natural
 >   >   >>   >   Sciences
 >   |
 >   >   Associate
 Zoologist in
 >   >   >>   Ichthyology
 >   | Dive Safety
 >   >   >>   >   Officer
 >   >   >>   >   Department
 >   >   of Natural
 Sciences,
 >   >   >>   >   Bishop
 >   >   Museum, 1525
 Bernice St.,
 >   >   >>   Honolulu,
 HI
 >   96817
 >   >   >>   >   Ph:
 >   >   (808)848-4115,
 Fax: (808)847-8252
 >   >   >>   email:
 deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
 >   >   >>   >   http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/staff/pylerichard.html
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   -----Original
 >   >   >>   >   Message-----
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   From:
 >   >   Stephen Thorpe
 >   >   >>   >   [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   Sent:
 >   >   Friday, January
 22, 2016
 >   >   >>   10:29
 AM
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >   >   >>   >   'engel';
 >   >   'Doug Yanega';
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Subject: RE:
 [Taxacom] two names
 >   >   >>   online
 >   >   >>   >   published
 >   -
 >   >   one new species
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   The
 >   >   issue may not be
 "huge", but
 >   >   >>   >   I
 >   think it
 >   >   is probably
 bigger than
 >   >   >>   you
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   indicate.
 >   >   There can be
 problems in
 >   >   >>   determining
 >   "the
 >   >   >>   >   earliest
 >   >   date on which
 all
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   of the
 >   >   >>   >   requirements
 >   >   have been met".
 Adding to
 >   >   >>   this
 problem
 >   is
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   fact
 >   >   that
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   many
 >   >   publishers are
 >   >   >>   >   publishing
 >   >   print editions
 online ahead
 >   >   >>   of
 actual
 >   print
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   (sometimes by
 months). We have
 >   >   >>   already
 >   >   >>   >   seen
 >   Frank
 >   >   Krell suggest,
 quite
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   erroneously
 >   >   in my view, that
 "March
 >   >   >>   2016"
 must
 >   be
 >   >   >>   >   a
 >   mistake on
 >   >   the
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Cretaceous
 Research
 >   >   >>   >   website.
 >   In
 >   >   fact, it is no
 mistake!
 >   >   >>   They
 have
 >   published
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   their
 >   >   March 2016 print
 edition
 >   >   >>   online
 >   >   >>   >   already,
 >   but
 >   >   it presumably
 won't be
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   actually
 >   >   printed until
 March! One, I
 >   >   >>   suppose
 only
 >   fairly
 >   >   >>   >   minor
 >   >   problem,
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   concerns the
 nominal
 >   >   >>   >   year
 >   of
 >   >   publication for
 taxon names,
 >   >   >>   which
 is
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   frequently
 widely appended to the
 >   >   >>   names
 >   >   >>   >   (i.e.,
 >   Aus
 >   >   bus Author,
 YEAR). It is
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   now
 >   >   >>   >   very
 >   hard to
 >   >   choose between
 one year
 >   >   >>   and
 the next
 >   (if online
 >   >   >>   >   versions
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   are
 >   >   published in one
 year, but
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   print
 >   >   version isn't
 actually
 >   >   >>   printed
 >   until the
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   following year).
 Another problem
 >   >   >>   is
 that
 >   >   >>   >   many
 >   people
 >   >   have wasted a
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   significant
 >   >   >>   >   amount
 >   of
 >   >   time doing
 preregistrations
 >   >   >>   on
 ZooBank
 >   that were
 >   >   >>   >   in
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   fact
 >   >   pointless. They
 thought
 >   >   >>   that
 >   >   >>   >   they
 >   were
 >   >   validly
 publishing online
 >   >   >>   first!
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   There
 >   >   are also issues
 relating to
 >   >   >>   how
 easy
 >   >   >>   >   it
 >   might be
 >   >   to make
 apparently
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   retroactive
 >   >   edits on
 ZooBank, which
 >   >   >>   cannot
 be
 >   (at least not
 >   >   >>   >   publicly)
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   datestamped (for
 example,
 >   >   >>   >   what
 >   would
 >   >   happen if I now
 edited
 >   >   >>   archive
 >   info
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   into
 >   >   the Zoobank
 record for
 >   >   >>   Systematic
 >   >   >>   >   Entomology?)
 >   >   Regrettably, I
 think
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   that
 >   >   >>   >   in
 >   the rush
 >   >   to push through
 a Zootaxa
 >   >   >>   optimised
 >   electronic
 >   >   >>   >   amendment,
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   the
 >   >   ICZN has created
 rather
 >   >   >>   >   a
 >   confusing
 >   >   mess for many
 authors and
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   publishers
 >   >   to try to deal
 with. BTW,
 >   >   >>   congrats
 to
 >   Z.-Q. Zhang
 >   >   >>   >   on
 >   his
 >   >   recent
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   appointment as
 head of
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   ICZN (I
 >   >   would have
 thought that
 >   >   >>   there
 was
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   rather
 >   >   a big COI
 involved there,
 >   >   >>   but
 >   >   >>   >   apparently
 >   >   not...)
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Stephen
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   --------------------------------------------
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   On Fri,
 >   >   22/1/16, Richard
 Pyle
 >   >   >>   <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
 >   >   >>   >   wrote:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Subject:
 >   >   >>   >   RE:
 >   >   [Taxacom] two
 names online
 >   >   >>   published
 -
 >   one new
 >   >   >>   >   species
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   To: "'Stephen
 >   >   >>   >   Thorpe'"
 >   >   <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
 >   >   >>   >   "'engel'"
 >   >   <msengel at ku.edu>,
 >   >   >>   >   "'Doug
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Yanega'"
 >   >   >>   >   <dyanega at ucr.edu>
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Received:
 Friday, 22
 >   >   >>   January,
 >   2016, 6:45
 >   >   >>   >   PM
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Well,
 >   >   >>   >   it's
 >   >   neither
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   new, nor huge*.
 >   >   >>   >   But
 >   it is a
 >   >   problem, and it
 was a
 >   >   >>   problem
 >   that was
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   recognized prior
 to the
 >   >   >>   publication
 >   of
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   >   Amendment, and
 one which
 >   >   >>   the
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   Commissioners
 >   >   have discussed
 >   >   >>   several
 >   times.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   The
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   fundamental
 question that
 >   >   >>   we
 do not
 >   have
 >   >   >>   >   a
 >   definitive
 >   >   answer  for
 yet
 >   >   >>   (even
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   though
 >   we
 >   >   have an
 over-abundance of
 >   >   >>   opinions),
 >   is how to
 >   >   >>   >   establish
 >   >   the
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   date of
 >   >   publication for
 >   >   >>   >   purposes
 >   >   of 
 priority, when the
 >   >   >>   following
 >   dates are
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   non-identical:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   1) The date on
 which the
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   publication was
 registered
 >   >   >>   in
 >   >   >>   >   ZooBank.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   2)
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   The
 >   date of
 >   >   publication as
 stated in
 >   >   >>   the
 ZooBank
 >   record.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   3) The date of
 publication
 >   >   >>   as
 stated
 >   in
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   >   work itself.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   4) The date on
 >   >   >>   >   which
 >   the
 >   >   first
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   electronic
 edition of
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   work was
 >   >   obtainable.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   5) The date
 >   >   >>   >   on
 >   which the
 >   >   ISSN or ISBN
 was
 >   >   >>   added
 >   to the ZooBank
 >   >   >>   >   record.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   6) The date on
 which
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   the Intended
 archive was
 >   >   >>   added
 to
 >   the
 >   >   >>   >   ZooBank
 >   >   record.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   7) The date on
 which
 >   >   >>   >   a
 >   revised
 >   >   version of the
 >   >   >>   electronic
 >   edition of the work
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   was
 >   >   obtainable
 (e.g.,
 >   >   >>   containing
 >   >   >>   >   evidence
 >   of
 >   >   registration).
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   8) The
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   date on which
 paper copies
 >   >   >>   were
 >   >   >>   >   obtainable.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   There
 >   are
 >   >   other dates as
 well
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   (e.g.,
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   date of
 >   >   publication as
 stated in
 >   >   >>   the
 >   paper  edition of
 >   >   >>   >   the
 >   work,
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   etc.),
 >   >   but I hope you
 get the
 >   >   >>   >   point
 >   >   that it's not a
 simple
 >   >   >>   issue,
 >   because there
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   are
 >   >   many 
 possible dates
 >   >   >>   associated
 >   with
 >   >   >>   >   a
 >   given
 >   >   work.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   So...
 >   which
 >   >   is the date of
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   publication
 >   >   for purposes of
 >   >   >>   priority?
 >   Certainly, most
 >   >   >>   >   would
 >   agree
 >   >   that it
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   cannot
 >   >   be prior to
 >   >   >>   >   #4
 >   (assuming
 >   >   the  above
 list is
 >   >   >>   in
 >   chronological
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   sequence). 
 Certainly,
 >   >   >>   not
 >   after #8
 >   >   >>   >   (provided
 >   >   the paper
 edition meets all
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   other
 >   >   criteria of the
 code for
 >   >   >>   paper-based
 >   >   >>   >   publications).
 >   >   Most
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Commissioners I
 >   >   >>   >   have
 >   >   discussed this
 with agree that
 >   >   >>   the
 >   logical answer
 >   >   >>   >   is,
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   generally "the
 earliest date
 >   >   >>   >   on
 >   >   which all of the
 requirements
 >   >   >>   have
 been
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   met".   As
 #2 has
 >   >   >>   no
 >   >   >>   >   bearing
 >   on
 >   >   any
 article  in the
 >   >   >>   Code,
 we can
 >   probably
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   ignore
 >   >   that one. 
 But all
 >   >   >>   the
 >   others
 >   >   >>   >   are
 >   in
 >   >   potential
 play.  One could
 >   >   >>   argue
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   (pretty 
 effectively, in
 >   >   >>   fact),
 that
 >   >   >>   >   while
 >   the
 >   >   Code requires
 >   >   >>   electronic
 >   works to
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   include
 >   >   the date of
 publication
 >   >   >>   to
 be
 >   >   >>   >   stated
 >   >   within the work
 itself, there
 >   >   >>   is
 no
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   requirement
 that  it be the
 >   >   >>   *correct*
 >   >   >>   >   date
 >   of
 >   >   publication. 
 Indeed, if
 >   >   >>   such
 a
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   requirement was,
 in fact, part of
 >   >   >>   the
 Code
 >   >   >>   >   (or
 >   how the
 >   >   Code  is
 >   >   >>   interpreted),
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   stability
 >   >   would most
 likely suffer.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Until there is
 clarity on
 >   >   >>   this
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   issue, either
 by
 >   >   >>   Declaration,
 >   Amendment,
 >   >   >>   >   formal
 >   >   statement, 
 or ratified
 >   >   >>   5th
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   Edition
 >   by
 >   >   the Commission,
 it seems to
 >   >   >>   me
 >   (and most others
 >   >   >>   >   I've
 >   >   discussed it
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   with),
 >   >   that the
 >   >   >>   >   trusty
 >   "the
 >   >   earliest date on
 which all
 >   >   >>   of
 the
 >   >   >>   >   requirements
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   have
 >   >   been met"
 >   >   >>   >   approach
 >   >   seems the
 most  logical
 >   >   >>   to
 use as a
 >   guideline.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Aloha,
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Rich
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   *The reason it's
 not a
 >   >   >>   >   "huge"
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   issue is that
 it
 >   >   >>   >   ultimately
 >   >   affects date of
 publication
 >   >   >>   for
 >   purposes of
 >   >   >>   >   priority;
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   and
 >   >   while there may
 be a few
 >   >   >>   >   cases
 >   >   where
 potentially
 >   >   >>   competing
 >   names
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   both
 >   >   fall within
 the  "grey
 >   >   >>   >   zone",
 >   there
 >   >   certainly aren't
 many.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 -----Original
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Message-----
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   From:
 >   >   Stephen Thorpe
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > Sent:
 Thursday,
 >   >   >>   January
 21,
 >   2016
 >   >   >>   >   11:53
 >   >   AM  >
 To:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >   >   >>   >   engel;
 >   Doug
 >   >   Yanega 
 > Cc:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Subject: Re:
 [Taxacom] two names
 >   >   >>   online
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   published - one
 new species
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >
 >   >   >>   >   Doug
 >   (CC
 >   >   Rich), 
 >  >
 >   >   >>   I
 think we
 >   may have
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   just
 >   >   stumbled upon
 a  huge
 >   >   >>   problem:
 >   >   >>   >   "the
 >   >   ZooBank 
 >
 >   >   >>   registration
 >   state both
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   the
 >   >   name of an
 electronic
 >   >   >>   archive
 >   >   >>   >   intended
 >   >   to  >
 preserve the
 >   >   >>   work
 >   and  ..."
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > I
 >   >   >>   >   have
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   always assumed
 that the
 >   >   >>   >   publisher
 >   >   does this, once
 for
 >   >   >>   each
 >   journal?
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > Certainly
 Magnolia
 >   >   >>   Press
 does
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   it for Zootaxa
 (not
 >   >   >>   surprisingly,
 >   >   >>   >   perhaps,
 >   >   since  >
 the whole
 >   >   >>   electronic
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   amendment is
 arguably
 >   >   >>   optimised
 >   for
 >   >   >>   >   Zootaxa).
 >   >   How  >
 many
 >   >   >>   authors
 >   think
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   to
 >   >   worry about the
 archive when
 >   >   >>   >   registering
 >   >   articles on
 >   >   >>   >
 >   ZooBank? Bugger
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   all!
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Looking at
 >   >   >>   >   some
 >   random
 >   >   records on
 ZooBank, I'm
 >   >   >>   now
 >   > worried
 >   >   >>   >   that
 >   a
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   large
 >   >   number of them
 fail
 >   >   >>   this
 >   >   >>   >   requirement!
 >   >   I think we need
 >   >   >>   >
 some
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   clarification
 here (Rich?)
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >
 >   >   >>   >   Stephen
 >   >   >  >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   --------------------------------------------
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > On Fri,
 22/1/16, Doug
 >   >   >>   Yanega
 >   <dyanega at ucr.edu>
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   wrote:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > 
 Subject:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   Re:
 >   >   [Taxacom] two
 names online
 >   >   >>   published
 -
 >   one new
 >   >   >>   >   species
 >   >   >  To:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
 >   >   >>   >   "engel"
 >   >   <msengel at ku.edu>
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   Received:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   Friday,
 >   >   22 January,
 >   >   >>   >   2016,
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   10:17 AM
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  On
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   1/21/16
 >   1:03
 >   >   PM,
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > 
 Stephen
 >   >   >>   >   Thorpe
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   wrote:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > It is
 worth
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > 
 noting
 >   >   >>   >   that
 >   Michael
 >   >   Engel did
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   preregister
 >   >   >>   >   his
 >   article
 >   >   (twice
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   actually!) on
 ZooBank:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > 18 October
 2015
 >   >   >> http://zoobank.org/References/A6A94078-42E5-48B8-
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 B602-49DA7D0523F6
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   [Record not
 >   >   >>   >   publicly
 >   >   viewable]
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   13
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   November
 >   >   2015 http://zoobank.org/References/ADFE8605-38F3-45C6-
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 B686-5094367C9695
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  >
 It would
 >   >   >>   therefore
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > 
 appear to be the
 >   >   >>   fault
 of
 >   the
 >   >   >>   >   journal
 >   >   (Cretaceous
 >   >   >>   Research)
 >   editorial
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   team 
 >  that no
 >   >   >>   ZooBank
 >   registration
 >   >   >>   >   was
 >   >   indicated
 in  the
 >   >   >>   publication,
 >   and
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   very  >
 unfortunate
 >   >   >>   in
 >   this case
 >   >   >>   >   since
 >   >   it  the
 same taxon was
 >   >   >>   apparently
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   validly 
 > described as
 >   >   >>   new
 by
 >   >   >>   >   Pohl
 >   >   & Beutel
 shortly
 >   >   >>   after!
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  It is
 not just
 >   >   >>   >   this
 >   one
 >   >   thing that
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   causes the 
 name
 >   >   >>   >   to
 >   be
 >   >   unavailable.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   There are
 *three*
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   requirements
 under
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   the present
 >   >   >>   >   ICZN,
 >   and
 >   >   the Engel
 et  al.
 >   >   >>   online
 >   paper  > failed to
 >   >   >>   >   comply
 >   with
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   *two*
 >   >   of  them,
 not
 >   >   >>   just
 >   >   >>   >   one.
 >   >   Note  the
 following
 >   >   >>   >
 (from
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   http://iczn.org/content/electronic-publication-made-available-
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   amendment-
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   code):
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   "
 >   >   The requirements
 for
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   electronic
 publications are
 >   >   >>   that
 >   the  work be
 >   >   >>   >   registered
 >   >   in ZooBank
 before
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   it  >
 >   >   >>   >   is
 >   >   published, 
 that the work
 >   >   >>   itself
 >   state  the date
 >   >   of
 >   >   >>   >   publication
 >   >   and
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   contain 
 > evidence
 >   >   >>   >   that
 >   >   registration
 has
 >   >   >>   occurred,
 >   and that the
 >   >   ZooBank
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   registration 
 >
 >   >   >>   state
 >   both the name
 >   >   >>   >   of
 >   an
 >   >   electronic 
 archive
 >   >   >>   intended
 to
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   preserve the
 work  > and
 >   >   >>   the
 ISSN or
 >   >   >>   >   ISBN
 >   >   >  >
 >   >   >>   associated
 >   with the work."
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  The
 >   >   >>   >   online
 >   >   version of this
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  work
 >   >   >>   >   fulfills
 >   the
 >   >   first of these
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   criteria,
 >   >   but neither of
 the
 >   >   >>   latter
 two.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   Sincerely,
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  --
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   Doug
 >   >   Yanega 
     Dept.
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  of
 >   >   >>   >   Entomology
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>
 >   Entomology
 >   >   >>   >   Research
 >   >   Museum 
 Univ.
 >   >   >>   of
 >   California,  >
 >   >   Riverside,
 >   >   >>   >   CA
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > 
 92521-0314
 >   >   >>   >
 >       skype:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   dyanega
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > 
 phone: (951)
 >   >   >>   827-4315
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   (disclaimer:
 opinions
 >   >   >>   are
 >   mine, not
 >   >   >>   >   UCR's)
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >
 >   >   >>   >   http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >> 
     "There
 >   are
 >   >   >>   >   some
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   enterprises
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  in
 which a
 >   >   >>   careful
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   disorderliness
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >
 >       is the
 >   >   true method" -
 Herman
 >   >   >>   Melville,
 >   >   >>   >   Moby
 >   Dick,
 >   >   Chap. 82 
 >
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   _______________________________________________
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > 
 Taxacom Mailing
 >   >   >>   List
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >  The
 Taxacom
 >   >   >>   Archive
 back
 >   to 1992
 >   >   >>   >   may
 >   >   be 
 searched at:
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   >
 >   >   >>   >   Celebrating
 >   >   29
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   years of
 >   >   >>   >   >
 >   >   > 
 Taxacom in
 >   >   >>   2016.
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   _______________________________________________
 >   >   >>   >
 Taxacom
 >   Mailing List
 >   >   >>   >
 Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   >>   >
 http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >   >>   >
 The
 >   Taxacom Archive back to
 >   >   1992 may be
 searched at:
 >   >   >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >   >>   >
 >   >   >>   >
 >   Celebrating 29 years of
 >   >   Taxacom in
 2016.
 >   >   >> 
    --
 >   >   >>   __________________________________________________
 >   >   >>
 >      Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D.,
 >   >   F.R.E.S.
 >   >   >> 
    US
 >   Post Office Address:
 >   >   >>   Montana
 >   Entomology Collection
 >   >   >>   Marsh
 Labs,
 >   Room 50
 >   >   >>   1911
 West
 >   Lincoln Street
 >   >   >>   Montana
 >   State University
 >   >   >>   Bozeman,
 MT
 >   59717
 >   >   >>   USA
 >   >   >> 
    UPS,
 >   FedEx, DHL Address:
 >   >   >>   Montana
 >   Entomology Collection
 >   >   >>   Marsh
 Labs,
 >   Room 50
 >   >   >>   1911
 West
 >   Lincoln Street
 >   >   >>   Montana
 >   State University
 >   >   >>   Bozeman,
 MT
 >   59718
 >   >   >>   USA
 >   >   >>
 >      (406) 994-4610
 >   >   (voice)
 >   >   >>   (406)
 >   994-6029 (FAX)
 >   >   >>   mivie at montana.edu
 >   >   >>
 >   >
 >   _______________________________________________
 >   >   >>   Taxacom
 >   Mailing List
 >   >   >>   Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   >>   http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >   >>   The
 Taxacom
 >   Archive back to 1992
 >   >   may be searched
 at:
 >   >   >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >   >>
 >      Celebrating 29 years of
 >   >   Taxacom in
 2016.
 >   >   >>
 >   >   >> .
 >   >   >>
 >   >   >
 >   >
 >   >   --
 >   >   __________________________________________________
 >   >
 >   >   Michael A. Ivie,
 Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
 >   >
 >   >   US Post Office
 Address:
 >   >   Montana
 Entomology Collection
 >   >   Marsh Labs, Room
 50
 >   >   1911 West
 Lincoln Street
 >   >   Montana State
 University
 >   >   Bozeman, MT
 59717
 >   >   USA
 >   >
 >   >   UPS, FedEx, DHL
 Address:
 >   >   Montana
 Entomology Collection
 >   >   Marsh Labs, Room
 50
 >   >   1911 West
 Lincoln Street
 >   >   Montana State
 University
 >   >   Bozeman, MT
 59718
 >   >   USA
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >   (406) 994-4610
 (voice)
 >   >   (406) 994-6029
 (FAX)
 >   >   mivie at montana.edu
 >   >
 >   >   _______________________________________________
 >   >   Taxacom Mailing
 List
 >   >   Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >   http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >   The Taxacom
 Archive back to 1992 may
 >   be searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >
 >   >   Celebrating 29
 years of Taxacom in
 >   2016.
 >   >
 >   > .
 >   >
 >   
 >   --
 >   __________________________________________________
 >   
 >   Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
 >   
 >   US Post Office Address:
 >   Montana Entomology Collection
 >   Marsh Labs, Room 50
 >   1911 West Lincoln Street
 >   Montana State University
 >   Bozeman, MT 59717
 >   USA
 >   
 >   UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 >   Montana Entomology Collection
 >   Marsh Labs, Room 50
 >   1911 West Lincoln Street
 >   Montana State University
 >   Bozeman, MT 59718
 >   USA
 >   
 >   
 >   (406) 994-4610 (voice)
 >   (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 >   mivie at montana.edu
 >   
 >
 > .
 >
 
 -- 
 __________________________________________________
 
 Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
 
 US Post Office Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 1911 West Lincoln Street
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59717
 USA
 
 UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 1911 West Lincoln Street
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59718
 USA
 
 
 (406) 994-4610 (voice)
 (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 mivie at montana.edu
 



More information about the Taxacom mailing list