[Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Sun Jan 17 13:42:51 CST 2016
Stephen's latest seems to indicate that one should not pay taxes towards
that for whom the individual is not interested in paying for. I might not,
for example, be interested to pay towards exploration of the moon etc. etc.
Some think the 'public' in general should not pay for road upkeep, but just
the user should pay. In the US there is a user pays approach to health
'care' through insurance which causes well known problems of access. Its a
philosophy. There are of course other philosophies.
John Grehan
On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> I don't think that I am the one confusing different issues at all.
>
> >When the research is paid for by ‘the public” then there should be an
> obligation for this to be made freely available to “the public” whether
> they are interested or not<
>
> That is a moot point, which does sound analogous to helping the proverbial
> old lady across the road who doesn't want to cross the road! But let's
> accept it for the sake of argument. The crucial point is that open access
> makes nothing "freely available"! Let's try to grasp an analogy. I always
> travel by public transport (bus and train), so I buy monthly passes at the
> start of each month. Then I have unlimited travel for that month. But it is
> not "free" travel! I have just paid for it in advance, that's all. Same
> with open access, except it is worse because most of the public have no
> interest in reading most of what they would have paid for in advance under
> open access!
>
> The second crucial point is that public money for open access fees will
> either result in the public paying more towards research (with nothing they
> particularly want in return), or, most likely, it will result in less
> research being done for the same amount of funding (because a proportion of
> it is spent on open access fees). Either way, the public doesn't benefit!
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 18/1/16, Lynn Raw <lynn at afriherp.org> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Monday, 18 January, 2016, 3:07 AM
>
> Are you
> confusing different issues? When the research is paid for by
> ‘the public” then there should be an obligation for this
> to be made freely available to “the public” whether they
> are interested or not. Admittedly, perhaps this should
> be limited to the residents/taxpayers of the countries
> concerned (i.e., EU member states for EU-funded research).
> As pointed out previously, some countries already publish
> the reports resulting from government-funded research on
> their own websites (e.g. randd.defra.gov.uk). As a
> proportion of the average person’s annual tax bill the
> amount spent on funding taxonomy compared to the overall
> research budget is likely to be sufficiently minuscule to be
> virtually undetectable. In the case of corporation-funded
> research (unlikely to involve taxonomy) then this is likely
> to be either unpublished and closely guarded for competitive
> advantage or published for general information and used to
> obtain publicity. In this case the open-access model would
> be the appropriate advertising choice. Funding by charities
> is also likely to follow the publicity route with the
> open-access model. This leaves researcher-funded research
> where the open-access model is probably desirable but more
> likely to be unaffordable. This type of research is also
> more likely to concern the many non-affiliated taxonomists
> who also need the availability of open-access publications
> to conduct their research. Maybe it is time to focus on
> solutions to this particular problem rather than debate the
> bigger picture.
>
>
> On 17 Jan
> 2016, at 05:06, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
> Yes Elena, clearly something is going
> on here under the surface "philanthropy". Note
> that either way, the public has to pay to read taxonomic
> literature, just either (1) they choose what they want to
> read and pay for it (standard model); or (2) they pay in
> advance for every single thing that they might want to read
> (open access). Hmmm...
>
> Stephen
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 17/1/16, Elena Kupriyanova
> <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> wrote:
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
> To: "'gread at actrix.gen.nz'"
> <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Sunday, 17 January, 2016,
> 5:35 PM
>
>
> Dear Geoff and et al.,
>
> I have a strange feeling that
> as a hypothetical 30
> year old
> long-distance truck driver fascinated by beetles
> you would be looking for a
> well-illustrated BOOK (not a
>
> Zootaxa article) on beetles of New Zealand. It is
> unlikely
> that you would be
> complaining when you learn that you either
> would need to buy such a book or to
> drive (walk) to a
> library to
> borrow it. Would this be a case of restricting
> what people can read because
> it's not directly
> relevant to
> their current job or place in society? We all
> buy books, don't we? Why is it ok
> for us to buy or borrow
> book, but
> at the same time we are convinced that scientific
> journals should be available to us
> instantly at a mouse
> click? I am
> confused now...
> Lena
>
> Dr. Elena
> Kupriyanova
> Senior Research
> Scientist
> Marine Invertebrates
>
> Associate
> Editor,
> Records of the Australian
> Museum
>
>
> Australian Museum Research Institute
> 1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010
> Australia
> t 61 2 9320
> 6340 m 61402735679 f 61 2 9320
> 6059
> Visit: http://www.australianmuseum.net.au
> Like: http://www.facebook.com/australianmuseum
> Follow: http://www.twitter.com/austmus
> Watch: http://www.youtube.com/austmus
> Inspiring the exploration of nature
> and cultures
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> On Behalf Of Geoffrey Read
> Sent: Friday, 15 January 2016 4:53
> PM
> To: Stephen Thorpe
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our
> taxonomic tidbit
>
> I admire your persistence Stephen!
>
> Let's
> say I'm a 30 year old long-distance truck
> driver. It's okay, but as a
> child I collected beetles
> and I
> still dream of becoming a biologist.
> Maybe it won't happen but I'm
> planning to go to university
> when
> I've saved up. Meantime I'm fascinated by the
> articles
> on beetles at Zootaxa,
> and need them to identify what I see
> in my garden. I contribute to
> Naturewatch too on my days
> off.
> Damn, so many of the articles are paywalled! It's
> really frustrating.
>
> Well
> Stephen, I reckon truck drivers too should be able to
> read Zootaxa articles gratis and
> without begging for them if
>
> it's easy enough for us to make it so. And I
> believe
> in not restricting what
> people can do or read because it's
> not directly relevant to their
> current job or place in
>
> society.
>
>
> Geoff
>
>
> On Fri, January 15, 2016 6:10 pm,
> Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> But Geoff, you are a
> taxonomist and therefore not a
> member of the
> public (in the relevant sense). The
> public should not
>
> have to pay so
> that you just might find
> something interesting in
> articles that aren't
>
> directly relevant to your work (or at
> least they should
> be
> given the
> informed choice of whether or not to
> pay). Don't think
>
> about it just
> from your perspective.
> Think instead of how much demand
> their really
> is for many taxonomic papers, stacked
> against the cost
> of
> making all
> of them freely available to everybody.
> There is a
> difference
> between
> "hiding information away"
> versus using public money to
> make it
> available to everyone, when only a
> handful of
>
> specialists are remotely interested in reading it.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 15/1/16, Geoff Read <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
> wrote:
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic
> tidbit
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Received: Friday, 15 January,
> 2016, 5:17 PM
>
> Stephen,
>
> You
> say " absolutely no point in paying
> publishers up
> front to make
> the publications
> available freely to everybody in
> the world"
>
> The
> idea that we should restrict access, hide
> away information
> from
> the public, and make it
> difficult to read our
>
> works is abhorrent to
> me.
>
> Fortunately we've come a long way in my lifetime
> towards open
> exchange and discussion - the
> internet as the
>
> shining example, and
> special mention to the access
> via BHL which has
>
> revolutionized our
> work as taxonomists
> more recently.
>
> Every paper published in
> Zootaxa today was
>
> paywalled. I don't have a
> subscription, so I don't have the
> access to Zootaxa
>
> that I know you
> do, but I'm
> interested in dipping into a wide
> range of taxonomy
> when
> I see something on the spot that
> just might be
> worth
> reading but is
> outside my narrow
> specialty. It helps me with my
> own work and it's
>
> good to see other ways of
> doing things,
>
> interpretations of the code,
> and the new techniques
> used. To do that
>
> today I need to write ten
> begging letters, and wait.
> Or pay 140
>
> dollars ($14 per paper). So
> I'll look at none of
> them.
>
> Yesterday was short paper day
> at Zootaxa - every
>
> one of those six
> was paywalled
> (including one from a colleague at
> Elena's
> institute),
> but could have so
> easily have been open access
> and read much more
>
> widely for just lunch money for
> most of the
> authors,
> or around a taxi
> fare if their
> employer pays. Hence my
> amazement that people
> would
> not do that when they had
> the chance.
>
> Geoff
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> On Behalf Of
> Stephen Thorpe
> Sent: Friday, 15 January 2016
> 2:46 p.m.
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> Elena Kupriyanova
> <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall
> our taxonomic
>
> tidbit
>
> Dear
> Elena,
>
> I like your post because I am
> trying to get
> people
> to think this
> matter through, and
> your post shows that you are
> starting to do
> just
> that. There appears to be a
> significant group who
>
> are lobbying for
> open access,
> even though, as you correctly
> point out, it is usually
>
> not very hard to get hold
> of publications
> for
> free, even when they
> are not open access.
> What matters is that
> the people who need to
>
> read the publications can
> read them. There
> is absolutely no point
> in
> paying publishers up front to
> make the
>
> punlications available freely
> to everybody in the world, given
> that only
> a few
> people will ever
> need to read most of
> them!
> Somthing very dodgy
> is going on here - those who
> stand to gain
>
> financially from open
> access are lobbying hard in
> favour of it! No
>
> surprises there, really
> ...
>
> Stephen
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 15/1/16, Elena
> Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re:
> [Taxacom] Paywall our
>
> taxonomic tidbit
> To:
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Friday, 15
> January, 2016,
> 1:07
> PM
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I am really confused
> by now re what
> the
> point of this
> discussion is.
> Should we make our
>
> taxonomic papers open
> access
> or should we use our grant
> money to do so
> instead of
> paying
> for it out our own pockets? I
> honestly cannot
> see any
> paywall
> - whenever I need a paper, I
> just write to the
> author and ask for a
> pdf. I am happy
> to
> send my own papers
> to
> anybody who cares to read them
> (gosh, where is a
> chance
> they might even cite
> me ;) Besides,
> there
> is
> Researchgate...
> Best,
> Lena
>
> Dr. Elena
> Kupriyanova
> Senior Research
> Scientist
> Marine
> Invertebrates
>
>
>
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> --
> Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
> 8 Zaida Way, Maupuia
> Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
> gread at actrix.gen.nz
>
>
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