[Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit

Thu Jan 14 18:46:32 CST 2016

Daphne,
Not sure exactly what you mean, but when I said "Here's a novel idea ..." that was sarcasm!
Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 15/1/16, Fautin, Daphne G. <fautin at ku.edu> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
 To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "Michael A. Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu>, "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
 Received: Friday, 15 January, 2016, 1:40 PM

 Dear Stephen,

 You are describing how it
 currently works, right?

 Daphne G. Fautin
 Professor
 Emerita, University of Kansas

 skype: daphne.fautin

 database of sea anemones
 hercules.kgs.ku.edu/Hexacoral/Anemone2/index.cfm

 ________________________________________
 From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 on behalf of Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
 Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 6:22 PM
 To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 Michael A. Ivie
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
 Paywall our taxonomic tidbit

 Mike,

 >Publishing is not free, the publisher has
 costs, and someone has to pay those costs. Why would people
 think research costs money but publishing does not?<

 Yes, indeed, and the answer to
 your question is that they don't. Here's a novel
 idea, Mike, how about the reader pays to read the
 publication, if they want to read it. For publications of
 limited interest, the total cost of readers paying to read
 is going to be far less than the total cost of authors
 paying open access costs set by publishers at very
 "optimistic" predictions of likely readership. So,
 the ones important to the particular research can read it,
 either by getting it free from an author/colleague, or by
 paying to read it. Let me put it as clearly as I can:

 Suppose that n people want to
 read a given publication. Suppose that they each must pay
 $100 (from public money) to the publisher in order to read
 it. It is quite possible that 100n is significantly less
 than $20/page for open access, given that no more than n
 people want to read it. Multiply all that by the vast number
 of limited interest taxonomic articles that get published
 every year, and the difference in cost gets even greater.

 Open access is good news for
 publishers and good news for institutions who claim
 overheads on grants gained by employees, but bad news for
 the public. For the public, it is analogous to helping the
 proverbial old lady cross the street who doesn't want to
 go! Look we have paid the publishers (with your money) so
 you can read it for free! Great, but I didn't want to
 read it!

 Stephen

 --------------------------------------------
 On Fri, 15/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
 wrote:

  Subject: Re:
 [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
  To:
 taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
  Received: Friday, 15 January, 2016, 12:44
 PM

  Com'on, Stephen,

  Publication costs are
 allowed
  in every grant I have ever
 gotten,
  reviewed
  or
 awarded.  It would be simply stupid for an agency to
  fund
  research but not
 dissemination of the
  findings. It does not
 matter how
  many
  people
 want to read it as long as the ones important to the

  particular research can read
 it.  This is
  very simple stuff, very
 odd
  you don't

 understand this.   These costs are a minor
  percentage of a
  grant, maybe
 $300 in a
  $25,000 grant.

  Publishing

 is not free, the publisher has costs, and someone has to
 pay

  those costs. Why would
 people think
  research costs money but
 publishing
  does
  not?

  Mike

  On 1/14/2016 4:24 PM, Stephen

 Thorpe wrote:
  > Cut the ad hominem
  rhetoric Frank. I don't see evil
 everywhere. But I can
  do the maths and see
 that $20/page multiplied by many

 thousands/year of taxonomic papers of limited interest
  amounts to a significant amount of public
 money spent on
  making stuff available to
 read when hardly anyone wants to
  read it.
 It is also an incentive for some authors to pad out
  their papers to be as long winded as
 possible.
  >
  >
 Stephen
  >
  >

 --------------------------------------------
  > On Fri, 15/1/16, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
  wrote:
  >

 >   Subject: RE: [Taxacom]
  Paywall
 our taxonomic tidbit
  >   To:
 "Stephen
  Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
  "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
  <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
  "Peter Uetz" <peter at uetz.us>
  >   Received: Friday, 15 January,
  2016, 11:51 AM
  >   
  >   Disseminating results is
  >   an essential part of the
  scientific endeavor. If public
  >   money is intended for
  research, this includes making the
  >   results known.

 >   
  >   You see evil
  >   problems everywhere,
  don't you, Stephen. Even in a
  >   $20/page open access
  charge.
  >   
  >   Frank
  >   
  >   
  >   Dr Frank
 T. Krell
  >   Curator of
  >   Entomology

 >   Commissioner,
  International
  >   Commission
  on
 Zoological Nomenclature
  >   Chair,
  >   ICZN ZooBank Committee
  >   Department of Zoology
  >   
  >   Denver
 Museum of Nature &
  Science
  >   2001 Colorado

 Boulevard
  >   Denver, CO
  80205-5798 USA
  >   Frank.Krell at dmns.org
  >   
  >   Phone:
 (+1) (303) 370-8244
  >   Fax: (+1)
 (303) 331-6492
  >   http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
  >   lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
  >   

 >   -----Original Message-----

 >   From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
  >   On Behalf Of Stephen
  Thorpe
  >   Sent:
 Thursday,
  >   January 14, 2016 3:02
 PM
  >   To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
  >   Peter Uetz <peter at uetz.us>
  >   Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
  Paywall our taxonomic

 >   tidbit
  >   
  >   Peter Uetz said:

 >   Just make your papers
  available
 to everybody, not just the
  >   few
 lucky ones
  >   

 >   Not sure if
  >   he was
 being sarcastic? I
  hope so. It amounts to
 "just
  >   make your papers
 available to
  everybody (whether they
 want
  >   to read it or not), not
 just
  the few who actually want to
  >   read it (and pay for it with
  public money intended for

 >   research!)"
  >   
  >   Stephen

 >   
  >   

 >   --------------------------------------------
  >   On Fri, 15/1/16, Peter Uetz
  <peter at uetz.us>
  >   wrote:

 >   
  > 
  Subject:
 Re:
  >   [Taxacom]

 Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
  > 
  To:
  >   taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
  >    Received: Friday, 15
 January, 2016,
  7:20 AM

 > 
  > 

  >    Yes! —

 >   Zootaxa is probably the best
  deal
 you can get.
  >    I paid for
 an
  open access paper in Zootaxa out
  >   of my own  pocket, and this
  was a single author paper.

 > 
  >    For teams, some
 of which may
  >   have grant money
 available,
  it  is a no brainer.
  >    Just make

 your papers available to everybody,

 >   not just the  few lucky
  ones.
  >    Especially
  >   if you believe that nothing
  in biology makes  sense except
  >   in the light of taxonomy,
  sorry..., evolution

 >    :)
  > 
  > 

 >    >

 ------------------------------
  > 
  >
  >    >
 Message: 9
  >    > Date:
 Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:58:22
  +1300
  >   > From:

 "Geoff Read" <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
  >   > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
  >   > Subject: [Taxacom]
  Paywall our taxonomic tidbit  >
  >   Message-ID:

 >    >     <88e32d0d97f3055d3f25280814fd767f.squirrel at my.actrix.co.nz>
  >    > Content-Type:
  >   text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
  >  > Am I

 >   unreasonable in expecting
  minor
 contributions to  Zootaxa
  >   to
 be  > affordable for
  authors as open
 access as a
  >   convenience  for
 their
  readers?

 >    > For

 >   instance that's USD 20
  for
 each author in today's
  >   worst
 2 page case!
  >    >
 Hopefully they earn
  >   (or did) much
 more that per
  hour.

 >    >
  > 
    > http://www.mapress.com/j/zt/article/view/zootaxa.4066.2.5
  >    >

 >    >
  Happens quite
  >   frequently -
  what
 are these contributors  thinking? Should

 >   we  > perhaps start a
  fund to
 help them out?
  >    >
  >    > --

 >   
  >   > Geoffrey B.
 Read,
  Ph.D.

 >    >

 >   Wellington, NEW ZEALAND

 >    > gread at actrix.gen.nz
  >    >

 > 
  >
  >   
  >   
  >   

 >   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  >    Peter Uetz, PhD
  >    Associate

 >   Professor

 >    Center for the Study of

 >   Biological Complexity
  Virginia
 Commonwealth University
  > 
  1015 Floyd Ave

 >    PO Box

 >   842030
  > 
    Richmond, VA 23284
  >   
  >   
  > 
  Ph: 804-827-4573
  > 
  >    http://csbc.vcu.edu/people/
  >    http://www.vcu.edu/csbc/uetz/uetz2.html
  > 
  >   

 >   _______________________________________________
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 to 1992 may
  be

 >   searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
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  > 
  Celebrating 29 years of

 >   Taxacom in 2016.

 >   _______________________________________________
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  1992 may be

 >   searched at:
  http://taxacom.markmail.org
  >   

 >   Celebrating 29 years of

 >   Taxacom in 2016.
  >

 _______________________________________________
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 >
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 be
  searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
  >
  > Celebrating 29
 years
  of Taxacom in 2016.

  --

 __________________________________________________

  Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D.,
  F.R.E.S.

  US
 Post Office
  Address:

 Montana Entomology Collection
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 Street
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  Celebrating 29 years of
  Taxacom in 2016.
 _______________________________________________
 Taxacom Mailing List
 Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
 searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org

 Celebrating 29 years of
 Taxacom in 2016.