[Taxacom] Help with finding a paper

Wed Oct 7 19:10:17 CDT 2015

Mike, 

So have you been a senior manager in an institution which uses public funding for taxonomic research? I haven't, but, by your argument, if you haven't either, then you don't know what you are talking about either, so my speculation could be true as far as you know. I am talking about a situation where the institution has the opportunity to grab more public funding than it can cope with if it had to use all of the non-overheads for actual research, due to having too few scientists, and occupying most of their time with other more profitable commercial work. So, either, they turn down the extra public funding because they don't have the manpower/time to spend it on research, or they take it anyway, grab the overheads, and spend the rest on things which don't require any science to be done, but which can still be spun as part of the scientific research (e.g. subscriptions, databasing, travel, etc.) Someone I know who does work as a scientist in such an
 institution has more than once described to me how he and his colleagues are under pressure from their employer to think up [quote]any bullshit project[unquote] to spend research funding on. How widespread a problem this is in the world I do not know.

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 8/10/15, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Help with finding a paper
 To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 Received: Thursday, 8 October, 2015, 12:06 PM

 Wow, glad you understand
 that this is speculation, because this is 
 really nonsense.  What possible economic model
 are you studying? Clearly 
 you have never
 been involved in actually keeping an institution open, 
 done the books, administered a grants program
 or negotiated IDC rates.

 Mike

 On
 10/7/2015 4:57 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
 > I have long speculated that a primary goal
 of keeping science funding flowing through the system
 explains most/all of the economics. With that as the primary
 goal, what the funding is actually spent on is very much a
 secondary concern. Many institutions "recoup
 overheads" from public science funding. So for every
 dollar that they can spend on a subscription, the
 institution might gain a dollar, and nobody has to do any
 actual science, so everybody (institution, scientist,
 publisher) wins, except for the public! I speculate that
 this is what is really driving "Open Access", and
 possibly also the growing restrictions on sending specimens
 between countries (so the taxonomist has to travel to the
 specimen, paid for by public science funding!)
 >
 > Stephen
 >
 >
 --------------------------------------------
 > On Thu, 8/10/15, Dean Pentcheff <pentcheff at gmail.com>
 wrote:
 >
 >   Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Help
 with finding a paper
 >   To:
 "Fred Schueler" <bckcdb at istar.ca>
 >   Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
 "David Seburn" <davidseburn at sympatico.ca>
 >   Received: Thursday, 8
 October, 2015, 11:47 AM
 >   
 >   I speculate that it has
 >   nothing to do with
 taxonomists or environmental
 >   consultants. Both of those
 constituencies are
 >   so tiny
 and commercially
 >   trivial
 that they
 >   simply don't
 count when publishers develop policies.
 >   
 >   The people who can pay are
 >   commercial biomedical and
 industrial
 >   researchers.
 Their ability to pay (and their
 >   corporation's legal
 obligation
 >   to do so)
 >   drives the system.
 >   
 >   -Dean
 >   --
 >   Dean Pentcheff
 >   pentcheff at gmail.com
 >   
 >   On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at
 3:20
 >   PM, Fred Schueler
 <bckcdb at istar.ca>
 >   wrote:
 >   
 >   > many have
 >   written:
 >   >
 >   > Hello all
 >   - I am having trouble getting
 a copy of the following paper
 >   from
 >   >> my usual
 sources...
 >   >>
 >   >
 >   > * somebody should study
 who is willing to
 >   pay $39
 for a paper they've only
 >   >
 >   known through the
 publisher's website abstract - if they
 >   know it's really
 >   > good they must
 >   have known somebody who has
 the pdf or an institutional
 >   > subscription, and gotten
 a copy that way,
 >   and
 otherwise they just ask
 >   > TAXACOM.
 >   >
 >   > You'd assume it
 >   would be commercial
 consultants who would be willing to
 >   > just click $39 away, but
 in their
 >   environmental
 assessments they never seem
 >   > to cite anything from
 the peer-reviewed
 >   literature. A real mystery -
 maybe
 >   > the
 >   publishers just put those
 whacking great prices on the
 >   individual
 >   > articles to keep
 libraries
 >   terrified into
 paying the whacking great prices
 >   > for subscriptions.
 >   >
 >   > does anyone know?
 >   >
 >   > fred.
 >   >
 >   ------------------------------------------------------------
 >   >       
    Frederick W.
 >   Schueler & Aleta
 Karstad
 >   > Daily
 >   Paintings - http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
 >   > Vulnerable Watersheds -
 http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/
 >   > Mudpuppy Night in Oxford
 Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm
 >   >     RR#2
 Bishops Mills,
 >   Ontario,
 Canada K0G 1T0
 >   >   
 on the
 >   Smiths Falls
 Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
 >   > 
    (613)258-3107 <bckcdb
 >   at istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/
 >   >
 >   ------------------------------------------------------------
 >   >
 >   _______________________________________________
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 >   > The Taxacom Archive back
 to 1992 may be
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 http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   
 >   Celebrating 28 years of
 >   Taxacom in 2015.
 >   
 >
 _______________________________________________
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 Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
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 >
 > Celebrating 28 years
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 -- 
 __________________________________________________

 Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D.,
 F.R.E.S.

 Montana Entomology
 Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 1911 West Lincoln Street
 NW
 corner of Lincoln and S.19th
 Montana State
 University
 Bozeman, MT 59717
 USA

 (406)
 994-4610 (voice)
 (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 mivie at montana.edu

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 Celebrating 28 years of
 Taxacom in 2015.