[Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Fri May 1 12:09:11 CDT 2015
No, I'm not interested in their refutation, but if someone comes up with a
refutation I would, of course, then be very interested.
John Grehan
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 6:56 AM, Peter Hovenkamp <phovenkamp at casema.nl>
wrote:
> That's interesting. You appear interested in refutations of tracks, nodes
> and baselines.
> Could you please take your favourite standard track, node or baseline (I
> have no preference) and just lean back and think what evidence you would
> accept as refuting evidence. Then let us know.
>
> Best,
>
> Peter Hovenkamp
>
>
> John Grehan schreef op 26-Apr-15 om 6:45 PM:
>
>> I’m not so sure that the situation in biogeography is so complex in
>> general. There are standard tracks, nodes and baselines. They have been
>> extensively documented and none refuted. There are spatial correlations
>> with geomorphology. These have been widely documented and none refuted.
>> Some have objected to there being an informative relationship, but usually
>> because of the misapplication of molecular clocks.
>>
>> I would be interested to know the empirical basis for the predication that
>> 40- 60 vegetable species have successfully colonized Cuba every million
>> years. What is the basis for dating Quercus oleoides var sagraeana at less
>> than a million years?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cuba definitely has an interesting biogeography with key connections
>> across
>> the Pacific (not surprising given geologist’s predictions for a Pacific
>> origin for some of the Cuban geology) and it is within one of the major
>> biogeographic nodes of the world).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Grehan
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Dr. Antonio Lopez <cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Biogeography is a synthesis science, in this science anything can be seen
>>> from the point of view of the biology or from the geography only. But in
>>> these cases we would have the history of the four blind ministers and the
>>> elephant. That makes everything much more complex, but we should assume
>>> it
>>> with that same complexity. For me, vicarianz and dispersal are two faces
>>> of
>>> the same coin, not different coins. The dispersal at big distances,
>>> without
>>> doubts is an exception. In accordance with my calculations to Cuba
>>> arrived
>>> between 40 and 60 vegetable successful species every million years, which
>>> is nothing. The oldest lineage that we have identified (as much for
>>> calculation as for DNA), Pinus tropicalis, is probably in the area before
>>> the rupture of Pangea and the most recent Quercus oleoides var
>>> sagraeana, a
>>> hybrid, has less than a million years. Both share the almost exact same
>>> distribution.
>>>
>>> In the 60-70 millions of years of biggest Antilles, the events of massive
>>> extinction are recurrent and with them vicariant processes constants have
>>> taken place. Then came processes of adaptive radiation. All that which
>>> has
>>> generated species with mechanisms of adaptation to avoid the extinction
>>> of
>>> the linages. We have more than 2.5 thousand of endemic species (50% of
>>> our
>>> flora)
>>>
>>> As a famous taxonomist, unfortunately already dead, wrote: a true
>>> taxonomic nightmares. I can say the same thing as biogeographist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. Antonio López Almirall
>>>
>>> Conservador del Herbario
>>>
>>> Museo Nacional de Historia Natural
>>>
>>> Obispo 61, Plaza de Armas
>>>
>>> Habana Vieja 10100, La Habana
>>>
>>> CUBA
>>>
>>> Email cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *De:* John Grehan [mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com]
>>> *Enviado el:* sábado, 25 de abril de 2015 09:56 p. m.
>>> *Para:* Anthony Gill
>>> *CC:* Stephen Thorpe; Karl Magnacca; Richard Pyle; TAXACOM; Dr. Antonio
>>> Lopez
>>> *Asunto:* Re: [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We already have plenty of monkeys - us.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Grehan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Anthony Gill <gill.anthony at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, I've just set up a bunch of monkeys on laptops. I'm not expecting
>>> Shakespeare's sonnets, but given enough time I'm hoping they'll knock
>>> out a
>>> decent taxonomic monograph or two.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 8:34 AM, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> If Stephen's view of biogeography is that it is just a series of beliefs
>>> or assertions then there is certainly not much more to be said about
>>> that.
>>> Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and there is no where further to go
>>> with that. But if one views biogeography as a science in the sense of
>>> applying methods of analysis (of geography and phylogeny) then one goes
>>> beyond just stating a personal belief to presenting a reasoned judgement
>>> or
>>> argument about the efficacy of particular methods and their results - as
>>> with any other science.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Grehan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Stephen Thorpe <
>>> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>>>
>>> Biogeography is just a pompous "academic" (in the worst sense) waste of
>>> time! Putting aside, for present purposes, the vast issue of marine
>>> biogeography, chance transoceanic dispersal of terrestrials is
>>> *unlikely*,
>>> yes, but all that means is that it isn't going to happen lots of times
>>> in a
>>> short stretch of time. Given many millions of years, it can still happen
>>> often enough to be a significant factor. There seems to be a slide from
>>> "unlikely to happen" to "can't happen"! Any academic discipline which is
>>> based ultimately on chance events is not going to be very useful!
>>> Biogeography ... we don't need to know! The existence of sister taxa on
>>> adjacent islands (or other landmasses) can be explained equally well by
>>> dispersal (since dispersal is most likely to happen between adjacent
>>> landmasses) or by vicariance (since vicariance is most likely to happen
>>> between adjacent landmasses)!
>>>
>>> Stephen
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> On Sun, 26/4/15, Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles
>>> To: "'Anthony Gill'" <gill.anthony at gmail.com>, "'Karl Magnacca'" <
>>> kmagnacca at wesleyan.edu>
>>> Cc: "'TAXACOM'" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "'Dr. Antonio Lopez'" <
>>> cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu>
>>> Received: Sunday, 26 April, 2015, 12:35 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> The same argument could
>>> be applied to ANY model of biogeography (dispersal,
>>> vicariance, panbiogeography, etc., etc.) That is, any
>>> presumption that any single model accounts for every pattern
>>> (or even most patterns) is, in my opinion, naïve. This is
>>> not to say that, in the end, one model does not dominate.
>>> But we are SO, SO, SO far away from understanding both
>>> evolutionary history and the actual distribution patterns of
>>> most living things, that only people who don't really
>>> understand the nature of biodiversity make claims that we
>>> are close to fully understanding it.
>>>
>>> Aloha,
>>> Rich
>>>
>>>
>>> > -----Original
>>> Message-----
>>> > From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
>>> On Behalf Of
>>> > Anthony Gill
>>> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 1:12 AM
>>> > To: Karl Magnacca
>>> > Cc:
>>> TAXACOM; Dr. Antonio Lopez
>>> > Subject: Re:
>>> [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles
>>> >
>>> > Of course, there are
>>> other from beyond panbiogeography that are concerned
>>> > that dispersal explanations should not be
>>> given a first-order explanation for
>>> >
>>> everything in biogeography. There is pattern to be
>>> discovered and explored. A
>>> > presumption
>>> of dispersal as an explanation for everything makes for
>>> > uninteresting, and ultimately irrelevant,
>>> research. I want no part of that.
>>> >
>>> > Tony
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Karl
>>> Magnacca
>>> > <kmagnacca at wesleyan.edu>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:24:32
>>> "Dr. Antonio Lopez"
>>> > >
>>> <cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu>
>>> wrote:
>>> > > > Colleague:
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> Thank you for the article of Head. Only when I read
>>> everything I am
>>> > > > able to
>>> understand and to reason. I never understood that
>>> supposed
>>> > > > difference between
>>> dispersalism and vicariancism as different
>>> > > > schools.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > That's because
>>> they're not. It's only in the mind of
>>> panbiogeograpy
>>> > > supporters like
>>> Grehan and Heads, who promote the idea that because
>>> > > rare trans-oceanic dispersal is
>>> unlikely, that therefore it never
>>> > >
>>> happens (while simultaneously claiming that they say no such
>>> thing,
>>> > > invoking the undefined term
>>> "regular dispersal") that such a dichotomy
>>> > > exists.
>>> > >
>>> > > Karl
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> > >
>>> > > Celebrating
>>> 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Dr Anthony C. Gill
>>> >
>>> Natural History Curator
>>> > A12 Macleay
>>> Museum
>>> > University of Sydney
>>> > NSW 2006
>>> >
>>> Australia.
>>> >
>>> > Ph.
>>> +61 02 9036 6499
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> > Celebrating 28 years
>>> of Taxacom in 2015.
>>>
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>>> Taxacom in 2015.
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>>> Taxacom Mailing List
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>>>
>>> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Dr Anthony C. Gill
>>>
>>> Natural History Curator
>>>
>>> A12 Macleay Museum
>>>
>>> University of Sydney
>>>
>>> NSW 2006
>>>
>>> Australia.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ph. +61 02 9036 6499
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
>>
>
>
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