[Taxacom] Excusing the inexcusable? (was: Killing of zoo giraffe to avoid inbreeding

Tue Feb 11 00:12:17 CST 2014

With just a bit of checking, it seems YWP obtained 3 bull giraffes for
their "bachelor herd" but recently announced they want to start breeding. 
They are not accredited for that.  Maybe things aren't as clear as they
seem.  Maybe, just maybe, the professional zookeepers at a very highly
respected zoo, know what they are doing?

> Come on Ken,
>
> "Professionals" at YWP wanted him, eh?  What do you really know about the
> place?  Its a for profit private business venture, and only a couple years
> old,  But, you know these pros, eh? Who are these unnamed Dutch
> professionals?  What do you know about them?  You don't think the Danish
> zoo keepers might know more than what the press reports?
>
> The death, autopsy and dismemberment was very well handled, the kids got
> some very valuable education, much more real than the sugar coated pap
> lesser institutions dole out.  Nature red of tooth and claw!
>
> Mike
>
>> Hi Mike,
>>         Suggesting that this is a debate between professional biologists
>> and ignorant "amateurs" is totally inaccurate and uncalled for.
>>        Even if you simply ignore the "amateurs" and "ignorant" rich
>> people, there is clearly a difference of opinion on such matters
>> just among professional zoologists.  Why are you so eager to defend
>> "professionals" of the European Zoo Assocation in particular, and
>> ignore the pleadings of professionals at the Yorkshire and Dutch
>> Wildlife Parks?
>>        It is clear to me that there is plenty of unoccupied space at
>> Yorkshire Wildlife Park for a giraffe like Marius, and that
>> professionals there wanted him.  That certain "breeding protocols"
>> of other professionals was at odds with the obvious solution to
>> their problem only indicates bureaucratic intransigence that too
>> often is at odds with common sense.
>>        Again, I say that they are being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
>> And
>> they only make convervationists in general look bad, when it is
>> really just a minority of Ivory-Tower purists that make us all look
>> intransigent if not outright cold-hearted.  There was clear
>> movement among many thousands to save Marius the giraffe, and yet a
>> tiny minority of genetic purists won that battle and had him
>> killed, and worse yet, in view of the public, carved up and fed to
>> lions to save a tiny bit of money.
>>        And yet the opportunity to gain a very considerable contribution
>> to
>> conservation was wasted in the process.  In ignoring "emotionalism"
>> as a factor in gaining adherents and contributors to conservation,
>> such academics are being extremely puristic, short-sighted, and
>> even detrimental to many of the species that purport to be saving.
>> If you are that puristic, you are frankly probably becoming more a
>> hindrance than a help.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:21:54 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: Excusing the inexcusable? (was: Killing of zoo giraffe to
>>> avoid inbreeding
>>> From: mivie at montana.edu
>>> To: kinman at hotmail.com
>>> CC: mivie at montana.edu; kim at kimvdlinde.com; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>>
>>> Ken,
>>>
>>> Sure, I suppose that conservation realities should be put aside based
>>> on
>>> what we can con people to donate money for.  We need to let ignorant
>>> rich
>>> people make decisions instead of those following the needs and
>>> procedures
>>> approved of the European Zoo Association.  So, we should conserve white
>>> tigers, not orange ones.  We need to listen to amateurs, not the
>>> professionals, 'cause those professionals have the best understanding
>>> of
>>> the needs of the species, and they spend their lives working to do the
>>> best job possible to make sure the species stay healthy and viable.
>>> No,
>>> we should listen to people sitting on couches 5,000 miles away reading
>>> their computer screen. I am sure the professionals don't know as much
>>> as
>>> their amateur critics.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Mike,
>>> >        Well, money was no problem because a wealthy benefactor
>>> offered
>>> a
>>> > whopping 415,000 pounds to help save Marius.  And the Yorkshire
>>> > Wildlife Park has room for 16 giraffes, but apparently still only
>>> > has 4.  Just think what they could have done with a fraction of
>>> > that money, including starting their own breeding program now
>>> > (instead of just hoping for one in the future).
>>> >        Although you call Marius an "excess animal", he could have
>>> brought
>>> > that wildlife park a big chunk of money that could have done a lot
>>> > of good.  It might have been due to the wealthy donor's
>>> > "emotionalism", but now that opportunity for a big donation to
>>> > conservation has been lost.
>>> >        In retrospect, it looks like this might turn out to be a case
>>> of
>>> > being very penny-wise and pound foolish.   And if you take the
>>> > emotionalism out of such philanthropy, much of that money just
>>> > dries up and goes elsewhere (such as setting new records for the
>>> > prices of artworks that often just disappear into private
>>> > collections).
>>> > ----------------Ken Kinman
>>> > P.S. Meanwhile, the giraffe exhibit at Yorkshire Wildlife Park
>>> remains
>>> > only 25 percent occupied.  What a waste of space, and Marius could
>>> have
>>> > done a lot of good for conservation even if he was just an "excess
>>> animal"
>>> > genetically.
>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 16:34:02 -0700
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Killing of zoo giraffe to avoid inbreeding
>>> >> From: mivie at montana.edu
>>> >> To: kinman at hotmail.com
>>> >> CC: kim at kimvdlinde.com; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> >>
>>> >> Ken,
>>> >>
>>> >> If Yorkshire is a good zoo, and has room for another male giraffe,
>>> and
>>> >> the
>>> >> same for the Dutch one, they should use that space for a more
>>> >> genetically
>>> >> suitable specimen.  Room in good zoos is finite, this was not an
>>> >> individual that made good use of those limited resources.  Wanting
>>> to
>>> >> "save him" is simple emotionalism over good practice.  This was a
>>> >> definitional excess animal.  How much would it cost to ship a
>>> giraffe
>>> >> from
>>> >> Denmark to England?  Not $50, I am sure. This way, 200lbs of meat
>>> was
>>> >> not
>>> >> bought, and those transport Euros can be used more wisely.
>>> >>
>>> >> This was not even a hard choice.
>>> >>
>>> >> Mike
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > Hi Kim,
>>> >> >         Well, I agree with some of the points you made.  Hard
>>> choices
>>> >> have
>>> >> > to be made sometimes for the good of the species.  However, this
>>> >> > was not a case where Marius would have been taking a spot of
>>> >> > another (genetically more valuable) giraffe in a conservation
>>> >> > program.
>>> >> >        Yorkshire Wildlife Park offered to put him in their
>>> recently
>>> >> formed
>>> >> > bachelor group of giraffes.  He wouldn't have been breeding there,
>>> >> > and there is no reason to think they would sell him to a circus.
>>> I
>>> >> > think this makes the Copenhagen conservationists look bad when
>>> they
>>> >> > ignore offers to give such a giraffe a new home:
>>> >> > "Yorkshire Wildlife Park said it was saddened to hear of his
>>> death,
>>> >> > expressing disappointment that its last minute offer to house
>>> Marius
>>> >> in
>>> >> > its state-of-the-art giraffe house alongside four other males,
>>> >> including
>>> >> > one from Copenhagen Zoo, had been ignored. A Dutch wildlife park
>>> had
>>> >> also
>>> >> > offered to re-home him."
>>> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 14:34:39 -0500
>>> >> >> From: kim at kimvdlinde.com
>>> >> >> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Killing of zoo giraffe to avoid inbreeding
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> And let me add. Many zoos and sanctuaries for that matter have
>>> become
>>> >> >> warehouses of geriatric and surplus animals solely because the
>>> public
>>> >> >> cannot handle that we sometimes need to kill an exotic animal
>>> that
>>> is
>>> >> >> healthy. As a result, valuable breeding programs for endangered
>>> >> species
>>> >> >> are on hold because of it to the point that the only way to
>>> restart
>>> >> >> those programs once there is space again is to get fresh wild
>>> caught
>>> >> >> animals because there are no healthy reproducing animals left, or
>>> the
>>> >> >> few remaining are too related. In some species, prolonged
>>> suppression
>>> >> of
>>> >> >> the natural cycles to prevent breeding causes problems down the
>>> road
>>> >> >> such as infertility. Does this all sound absurd? Yes, it does,
>>> >> because
>>> >> >> at this moment, we have let out emotions (which is individual
>>> >> centered)
>>> >> >> overrule what is best for the species. If we are serious about
>>> zoos
>>> >> as a
>>> >> >> tool in conservation, we need to make the decision based on what
>>> is
>>> >> best
>>> >> >> for the species, and not emotions surrounding a single
>>> individual.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Kim
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On 2/10/2014 1:21 PM, Ken Kinman wrote:
>>> >> >> > Dear All,       As you may have heard, a young giraffe at the
>>> >> >> Copenhagen Zoo was killed yesterday in order to avoid inbreeding.
>>> >> >> That despite offers from other zoos to rehome him.  Although I
>>> can
>>> >> >> understand the zoo's rationalization, I don't understand what
>>> harm
>>> >> >> would have come from shipping him off to another zoo if he would
>>> be a
>>> >> >> zoo display animal (not a breeder).
>>> >> >> >       Anyway, I guess this is common practice in zoos to avoid
>>> >> >> inbreeding in other mammals.  However, displaying the dead
>>> >> >> animal to a crowd (including children), much less reportedly
>>> >> >> cutting it up in front of said crowd, was probably very unwise.
>>> >> >> Especially a young giraffe.  But on the other hand, death
>>> >> >> threats against zoo officials certainly are not called for.  In
>>> >> >> any case, I suppose a civil debate is in order about just how
>>> >> >> strict a zoo's inbreeding protocol should be in such cases (as
>>> >> >> well as the displaying of such a dead animal in public).
>>> >> >> > http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/10/world/europe/denmark-zoo-giraffe/
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --------------------Ken Kinman
>>> >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> > Taxacom Mailing List
>>> >> >> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> >> >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>> >> >> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
>>> >> >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> Taxacom Mailing List
>>> >> >> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> >> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>> >> >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
>>> >> >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> > Taxacom Mailing List
>>> >> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>> >> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
>>> >> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>>> >> Montana Entomology Collection
>>> >> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>>> >> NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
>>> >> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>>> >> Montana State University
>>> >> Bozeman, MT 59717
>>> >> USA
>>> >>
>>> >> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>>> >> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>>> >> mivie at montana.edu
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>>> Montana Entomology Collection
>>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>>> NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
>>> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>>> Montana State University
>>> Bozeman, MT 59717
>>> USA
>>>
>>> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>>> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>>> mivie at montana.edu
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>

-- 
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA

(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu