[Taxacom] Excusing the inexcusable? (was: Killing of zoo giraffe to avoid inbreeding
Ken Kinman
kinman at hotmail.com
Mon Feb 10 20:32:51 CST 2014
Hi Mike,
Suggesting that this is a debate between professional biologists and ignorant "amateurs" is totally inaccurate and uncalled for.
Even if you simply ignore the "amateurs" and "ignorant" rich people, there is clearly a difference of opinion on such matters just among professional zoologists. Why are you so eager to defend "professionals" of the European Zoo Assocation in particular, and ignore the pleadings of professionals at the Yorkshire and Dutch Wildlife Parks?
It is clear to me that there is plenty of unoccupied space at Yorkshire Wildlife Park for a giraffe like Marius, and that professionals there wanted him. That certain "breeding protocols" of other professionals was at odds with the obvious solution to their problem only indicates bureaucratic intransigence that too often is at odds with common sense.
Again, I say that they are being penny-wise and pound-foolish. And they only make convervationists in general look bad, when it is really just a minority of Ivory-Tower purists that make us all look intransigent if not outright cold-hearted. There was clear movement among many thousands to save Marius the giraffe, and yet a tiny minority of genetic purists won that battle and had him killed, and worse yet, in view of the public, carved up and fed to lions to save a tiny bit of money.
And yet the opportunity to gain a very considerable contribution to conservation was wasted in the process. In ignoring "emotionalism" as a factor in gaining adherents and contributors to conservation, such academics are being extremely puristic, short-sighted, and even detrimental to many of the species that purport to be saving. If you are that puristic, you are frankly probably becoming more a hindrance than a help.
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> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:21:54 -0700
> Subject: Re: Excusing the inexcusable? (was: Killing of zoo giraffe to avoid inbreeding
> From: mivie at montana.edu
> To: kinman at hotmail.com
> CC: mivie at montana.edu; kim at kimvdlinde.com; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> Ken,
>
> Sure, I suppose that conservation realities should be put aside based on
> what we can con people to donate money for. We need to let ignorant rich
> people make decisions instead of those following the needs and procedures
> approved of the European Zoo Association. So, we should conserve white
> tigers, not orange ones. We need to listen to amateurs, not the
> professionals, 'cause those professionals have the best understanding of
> the needs of the species, and they spend their lives working to do the
> best job possible to make sure the species stay healthy and viable. No,
> we should listen to people sitting on couches 5,000 miles away reading
> their computer screen. I am sure the professionals don't know as much as
> their amateur critics.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> > Well, money was no problem because a wealthy benefactor offered a
> > whopping 415,000 pounds to help save Marius. And the Yorkshire
> > Wildlife Park has room for 16 giraffes, but apparently still only
> > has 4. Just think what they could have done with a fraction of
> > that money, including starting their own breeding program now
> > (instead of just hoping for one in the future).
> > Although you call Marius an "excess animal", he could have brought
> > that wildlife park a big chunk of money that could have done a lot
> > of good. It might have been due to the wealthy donor's
> > "emotionalism", but now that opportunity for a big donation to
> > conservation has been lost.
> > In retrospect, it looks like this might turn out to be a case of
> > being very penny-wise and pound foolish. And if you take the
> > emotionalism out of such philanthropy, much of that money just
> > dries up and goes elsewhere (such as setting new records for the
> > prices of artworks that often just disappear into private
> > collections).
> > ----------------Ken Kinman
> > P.S. Meanwhile, the giraffe exhibit at Yorkshire Wildlife Park remains
> > only 25 percent occupied. What a waste of space, and Marius could have
> > done a lot of good for conservation even if he was just an "excess animal"
> > genetically.
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 16:34:02 -0700
> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Killing of zoo giraffe to avoid inbreeding
> >> From: mivie at montana.edu
> >> To: kinman at hotmail.com
> >> CC: kim at kimvdlinde.com; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >>
> >> Ken,
> >>
> >> If Yorkshire is a good zoo, and has room for another male giraffe, and
> >> the
> >> same for the Dutch one, they should use that space for a more
> >> genetically
> >> suitable specimen. Room in good zoos is finite, this was not an
> >> individual that made good use of those limited resources. Wanting to
> >> "save him" is simple emotionalism over good practice. This was a
> >> definitional excess animal. How much would it cost to ship a giraffe
> >> from
> >> Denmark to England? Not $50, I am sure. This way, 200lbs of meat was
> >> not
> >> bought, and those transport Euros can be used more wisely.
> >>
> >> This was not even a hard choice.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi Kim,
> >> > Well, I agree with some of the points you made. Hard choices
> >> have
> >> > to be made sometimes for the good of the species. However, this
> >> > was not a case where Marius would have been taking a spot of
> >> > another (genetically more valuable) giraffe in a conservation
> >> > program.
> >> > Yorkshire Wildlife Park offered to put him in their recently
> >> formed
> >> > bachelor group of giraffes. He wouldn't have been breeding there,
> >> > and there is no reason to think they would sell him to a circus. I
> >> > think this makes the Copenhagen conservationists look bad when they
> >> > ignore offers to give such a giraffe a new home:
> >> > "Yorkshire Wildlife Park said it was “saddened” to hear of his death,
> >> > expressing disappointment that its last minute offer to house Marius
> >> in
> >> > its “state-of-the-art giraffe house” alongside four other males,
> >> including
> >> > one from Copenhagen Zoo, had been ignored. A Dutch wildlife park had
> >> also
> >> > offered to re-home him."
> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 14:34:39 -0500
> >> >> From: kim at kimvdlinde.com
> >> >> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Killing of zoo giraffe to avoid inbreeding
> >> >>
> >> >> And let me add. Many zoos and sanctuaries for that matter have become
> >> >> warehouses of geriatric and surplus animals solely because the public
> >> >> cannot handle that we sometimes need to kill an exotic animal that is
> >> >> healthy. As a result, valuable breeding programs for endangered
> >> species
> >> >> are on hold because of it to the point that the only way to restart
> >> >> those programs once there is space again is to get fresh wild caught
> >> >> animals because there are no healthy reproducing animals left, or the
> >> >> few remaining are too related. In some species, prolonged suppression
> >> of
> >> >> the natural cycles to prevent breeding causes problems down the road
> >> >> such as infertility. Does this all sound absurd? Yes, it does,
> >> because
> >> >> at this moment, we have let out emotions (which is individual
> >> centered)
> >> >> overrule what is best for the species. If we are serious about zoos
> >> as a
> >> >> tool in conservation, we need to make the decision based on what is
> >> best
> >> >> for the species, and not emotions surrounding a single individual.
> >> >>
> >> >> Kim
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 2/10/2014 1:21 PM, Ken Kinman wrote:
> >> >> > Dear All, As you may have heard, a young giraffe at the
> >> >> Copenhagen Zoo was killed yesterday in order to avoid inbreeding.
> >> >> That despite offers from other zoos to rehome him. Although I can
> >> >> understand the zoo's rationalization, I don't understand what harm
> >> >> would have come from shipping him off to another zoo if he would be a
> >> >> zoo display animal (not a breeder).
> >> >> > Anyway, I guess this is common practice in zoos to avoid
> >> >> inbreeding in other mammals. However, displaying the dead
> >> >> animal to a crowd (including children), much less reportedly
> >> >> cutting it up in front of said crowd, was probably very unwise.
> >> >> Especially a young giraffe. But on the other hand, death
> >> >> threats against zoo officials certainly are not called for. In
> >> >> any case, I suppose a civil debate is in order about just how
> >> >> strict a zoo's inbreeding protocol should be in such cases (as
> >> >> well as the displaying of such a dead animal in public).
> >> >> > http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/10/world/europe/denmark-zoo-giraffe/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --------------------Ken Kinman
> >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
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> >> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >> >
> >> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >> Montana Entomology Collection
> >> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> >> NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
> >> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> >> Montana State University
> >> Bozeman, MT 59717
> >> USA
> >>
> >> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> >> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> >> mivie at montana.edu
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>
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