[Taxacom] New systematics book

Tue Sep 10 16:01:30 CDT 2013

Say, if extinction is a part of speciation, then taxa are temporally isolated. That is, every age has its own set of taxa, some the same as other ages, some diffeent, some shifted or shifting their adaptive regimes or stochastic trait allotments. 

Thus, one should not compare taxa adapted to environment a and c, with similar taxa adapted to environments b and d in a different age. (Probably some better way of saying this.)

Lumping taxa because one finds an intermediate in bygone eras seems nonsensical if extinction of intermediates is part of evolution.

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-----Original Message-----
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of JF Mate
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 3:55 PM
To: Taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] New systematics book

Ken Kinman wrote:
  "Since we will never have anything near a complete fossil record, we will
always have gaps that make drawing the boundary lines easier.  The gaps in
the theropod to bird transition have narrowed, but are still substantial.
The question is whether we should continue to regard Archaeopterx as the
first bird, or draw the line within an earlier gap. "

Not the best possible example Ken. The list of differences between
Theropods-Archaeopteryx-Birds is shrinking so fast we will soon be defining
arbitrary boundaries such as the one you propose by "drawing a line". The
point of the imaginary complete-fossil-record scenario is simply to stress
that the uncertainty delineating groups (from species to phyla) is
artefactual, a consequence of extinction and poor fossil preservation. Its
like smashing a mirror and naming the shards. I am obviously not against
this (I am a taxonomist by Jove) but I have to admit to myself the irony of
the endeavour.

"Hopefully we will find a gap that has a fossilizable character (or group
of characters) that evolved relatively quickly, like the transformation of
jaw bones into the three ear bones which marks the boundary between
reptiles and the first mammals (endothermy was no help there either)."

Unless the proverbial hurricane went through a junkyard and built a 747 (or
in this case transformed the malleus, incus and stapes into the auditory
device that is is now) where would you draw the line? Imagine the evolution
and you will see that any line you draw across can be nullified by a
transitional fossil should it be found.

Just my 2c.

Jason

On 10 September 2013 19:35, Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
>      Since we will never have anything near a complete fossil record, we
> will always have gaps that make drawing the boundary lines easier.  The
> gaps in the theropod to bird transition have narrowed, but are still
> substantial.
>
>       The question is whether we should continue to regard Archaeopterx as
> the first bird, or draw the line within an earlier gap.  Hopefully we will
> find a gap that has a fossilizable character (or group of characters) that
> evolved relatively quickly, like the transformation of jaw bones into the
> three ear bones which marks the boundary between reptiles and the first
> mammals (endothermy was no help there either).
>
>           ------Ken
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 09:02:31 +0200
> > From: aphodiinaemate at gmail.com
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] New systematics book
> >
> > Curtis Clark wrote:
> > >One by one, the synapomorphies of
> > >"birds" fall deeper into the theropods as we learn more.
> >
> > If we had access to fossils for every species that has ever lived our
> > classifications would be one large list of species names. And if we had
> > access to fossils of all populations of every species that has ever lived
> > we probably wouldn´t have species either.
> >
> >
> > On 10 September 2013 05:44, Curtis Clark <lists at curtisclark.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On 2013-09-09 8:09 AM, Fred Schueler wrote:
> > > > * if reptilia is a grade, "Birds are descended from Reptiles" is
> just a
> > > > way of saying "endothermy is an avian apomorphy."
> > >
> > > Aye, there's the rub. The evidence of endothermy in non-avian dinosaurs
> > > is pervasive if not conclusive. One by one, the synapomorphies of
> > > "birds" fall deeper into the theropods as we learn more.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark
> > > Biological Sciences +1 909 869 4140
> > > Cal Poly Pomona, Pomona CA 91768
> > >
> > >
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Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.