[Taxacom] We are cataloguing hypotheses & not real things -- I hope everyone appreciates the implications of this. Was Global species lists ....
Philipp Wagner
philipp.wagner.zfmk at uni-bonn.de
Sun Sep 1 06:43:45 CDT 2013
Dear Raymond,
mybe I am not correct, but this list was created to
discuss topics about nomenclature and taxonomy.
Regarding this I would be happy if you could stopp your
personell fights here in this forum.
Thanks,
Philipp
n Sun, 1 Sep 2013 21:50:03 +1030
Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Wulf for your insight.
>
>
> I might add that when you engage in taxonomic vandalism
>and
> creationism instead of science, you end up with names
>for imaginary species that clutter up the
> world with synonyms.
>
>
> A good example of three such names for totally imaginary
>species
> is found here:
>
>
> http://www.smuggled.com/scientific-fraud-wulf-schleip.htm
>
> All the best
>
>
> Snakebustersâ - Australia's best reptilesâ
>
> The only hands-on reptilesâ shows that lets people hold
>the animalsâ.
>
> Reptile partiesâ, events, courses
> Phones: 9812 3322
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> 0412 777 211
>
>
>> From: webmaster at leiopython.de
>> To: Michael.Ohl at mfn-berlin.de; Nicholasa at ukzn.ac.za;
>>taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 09:48:55 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] We are cataloguing hypotheses &
>>not real things -- I hope everyone appreciates the
>>implications of this. Was Global species lists ....
>>
>> Dear Michael, dear list,
>>
>> yes, nomenclature and taxonomy are two different things.
>>While nomenclature
>> is simply a tool for taxonomy, both canot exist without
>>each other. What use
>> would nomenclature do without anything to name? And what
>>chaos would we have
>> if we differntiate or classify things without making
>>them clearly
>> identifiable (e.g., by names or numbers)?
>>
>> So, in nomenclature we have names, but these names are
>>usually represented
>> by a typ species (generic) or specimen (specific and
>>subspecific). There is
>> a concept (maybe a hypothesis) behind each scientific
>>name. Therefore, we
>> use the name as an alias for 1) a label for the type
>>specimen itself, 2) for
>> the type specimen as an objective reference with
>>characters on which the
>> concept/hypothesis usually is based on, and 3) for the
>>taxon differentiated
>> from others by the concept/hypothesis.
>>
>> A name, therefore, is more than just a name and a
>>catalogue is more than a
>> list of names.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Wulf
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] Im Auftrag
>>von Ohl, Michael
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 30. August 2013 13:26
>> An: 'Ashley Nicholas'; 'taxacom taxacom'
>> Betreff: Re: [Taxacom] We are cataloguing hypotheses &
>>not real things -- I
>> hope everyone appreciates the implications of this. Was
>>Global species lists
>> ....
>>
>> I disagree. We are cataloging neither hypotheses nor
>>real things, but
>> linguistic items that may or may not be proper names in
>>a linguistic sense
>> and that may or may not label hypotheses on the
>>existence of natural things
>> beyond the human mind. Opinions differ on both. This is
>>an important
>> difference, which has been repeatedly been discussed as
>>the difference
>> between nomenclature and taxonomy. Names have no other
>>function than to
>> label information, and cataloging these linguistic
>>labels is important in
>> order to optimize access to the underlying information.
>>The questions of the
>> reality and nature of species, whether they are
>>biological species,
>> individuals, relations, or even non-existent, are
>>important, but are not a
>> matter of names as linguistic elements, which denote
>>concepts. So catalogues
>> are not catalogues of species hypotheses but of names.
>>
>> Cheers, Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> PD Dr. Michael Ohl
>> Curator // Head of Entomological Collections Museum fuer
>>Naturkunde
>> Leibniz-Institut fuer Evolutions- und
>>Biodiversitaetsforschung Invalidenstr.
>> 43
>> D-10115 Berlin, Germany
>> Tel: ++49-30-2093-8507
>> Fax: ++49-30-2093-8868
>>
>> E-Mail: michael.ohl(at)mfn-berlin.de
>> URL:
>>http://www.naturkundemuseum-berlin.de/institution/mitarbeiter/ohl-micha
>> el/
>>
>> Geschäftsführer der Gesellschaft für Biologische
>>Systematik (GfBS) Managing
>> Editor Arthropoda von Zoosystematics and Evolution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] Im Auftrag
>>von Ashley Nicholas
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 30. August 2013 12:32
>> An: taxacom taxacom
>> Betreff: [Taxacom] We are cataloguing hypotheses & not
>>real things -- I hope
>> everyone appreciates the implications of this. Was
>>Global species lists ....
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I just hope that people doing these digital catalogues
>>appreciate that all
>> they are doing is cataloguing hypotheses -- in this case
>>species hypotheses
>> (species are not real entities -- Popper's World 2)? We
>>measure specimens
>> and populations (Popper's World 1). We extrapolate this
>>limited data to
>> hypothesise species. If a researcher can claim to have
>>measured every
>> specimen and population of a species (maybe possible for
>>species confined to
>> small areas esp. islands [maybe this is why vicariance
>>is so easily
>> demonstrated in island situation?]). Only then can s/he
>>claim to have
>> objectified a species. However, even then this will only
>>hold true for that
>> instance because as the gene pool changes over time s/he
>>can no longer claim
>> to have objectified that species.
>>
>> These catalogues are catalogues of species hypotheses.
>>Hypotheses are not
>> the "truth" they are suppositions that remain to be
>>verified (a shaky
>> premise) or falsified (a better premise). So who is
>>someone doing a
>> catalogue to say that one species hypothesis is the
>>correct one -- and
>> include it, while rejecting all others? As an empirical
>>scientist that makes
>> me feel very uncomfortable.
>>
>> However, I can see that something needs to be produced
>>for conservationists
>> etc. to use. I have no answer. Taxonomy was originally
>>both a science and a
>> service (to societies) and we still need to fulfil this
>>role. I was called
>> in to identify a plant that had poisoned two young
>>children recently -- and
>> thanked my orthodox training because I had the skill to
>>select the one
>> "species" in our province from the other 6500 that also
>>occur here in order
>> to save their lives. However, the scientist in me also
>>understands the fact
>> that we cannot have a dictatorial system that selects
>>some species
>> hypotheses over others; science should not be
>>dictatorial -- and these
>> catalogues often are.
>>
>> Regards
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of
>>Dave Roberts
>> Sent: 29 August 2013 15:21
>> To: taxacom taxacom
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] global species lists and taxonomy
>>( was Re: Draft
>> Checklist ...)
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I fear that the comparatively greater complexity of the
>>animals will make
>> such an approach a considerable amount of work, or more
>>bluntly, will be
>> significantly hard.
>>
>> With the list of names, on which so many people are
>>labouring without, as
>> Rich says, sufficient coordination, we also need a
>>classification bank, a
>> simple way to find in how many arrangements a given
>>taxon has been placed.
>> That was one of the priorities identified in the
>>Biodiversity Informatics
>> Decadal Vision [1].
>>
>> The EU's funding programme H2020 is an opportunity to
>>create a large
>> consortium to do exactly that level of coordination.
>> The problem, though,
>> is to link it in some way to either job creation or
>>policy making at an EU
>> scale. The advantage is that international
>>collaboration (i.e. outside
>> Europe) is likely to be more tractable in H2020.
>>
>> Next week's meeting in Rome [2] is a starting point for
>>that kind of
>> discussion.
>>
>> Cheers, Dave
>>
>> [1] Hardisty, Alex, Dave Roberts, and The Biodiversity
>>Informatics
>> Community. "A Decadal View of Biodiversity Informatics:
>>Challenges and
>> Priorities." BMC Ecology 13 (2013): 16.
>>doi:10.1186/1472-6785-13-16.
>> http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6785/13/16
>>
>> [2]
>>http://conference.lifewatch.unisalento.it/index.php/EBIC/BIH2013/
>>
>> --
>> On 29 Aug 2013, at 13:08, nicky nicolson
>><nicky.nicolson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks Karen, yes this is what we are working on in
>>botany and
>> > mycology - we are using the nomenclators (IPNI and IF)
>>to provide the
>> > fundamental units (names and the objective
>>relationships between them)
>> > and then supporting multiple overlapping - even
>>contradictory -
>> > classifications to be built using these same
>>fundamental units. We are
>> > storing enough data on the relationships which form
>>the taxonomic
>> > classifications to do the kind of assessments that
>>Fred suggests -
>> > e.g. to take into account how recently the hypothesis
>>was published,
>> > who published it and where (e.g. was it a regional
>>treatment or a
>> globally-scoped monograph).
>> > I did quite a general talk about this at the Natural
>>History Museum in
>> > London recently, video here:
>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynFB6DWCBjc and slides
>>here:
>> >
>>http://www.slideshare.net/nickyn/nicolson-namesbackbonenhm
>> > We've a funded project to rebuild Kew's taxonomic
>>systems in this
>> > environment, and we are working on incorporating the
>>World Checklist
>> > system at the moment, although our communications
>>standard is TCS so
>> > we should be able to import / export data from many
>>different sources.
>> > cheers,
>> > Nicky
>> >
>> > PS: I'll be at TDWG along with a few people from the
>>Kew team if
>> > anybody is interested in having a closer look.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 29 August 2013 12:18, Karen Cranston
>><karen.cranston at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> It is not too hard to implement this type of system.
>>Both IPNI and
>> >> Open Tree of Life are currently implementing a
>>relatively new graph
>> >> database model (database called neo4j) to load and
>>store multiple
>> >> hierarchies in the same data structure. Then, you can
>>traverse the
>> >> graph (which contains all of the nodes and edges, and
>>therefore all
>> >> of the conflict) in various ways in order to
>>summarize / resolve
>> >> conflicts / find interesting patterns. You could use
>>algorithmic and
>> >> / or human-curated approaches to annotate or resolve
>>parts of the
>> >> hierarchy, while still keeping all of the information
>>from the
>> >> sources. Visualization libraries like d3 make it easy
>>to create images or
>> interactive tools to explore the data in the graph.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Erik Rijkers
>><er at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Thu, August 29, 2013 12:31, Fred Schueler wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Maybe we want to take a lesson from the physicists'
>>ideas of
>> >>>> infinite parallel universes, and program systems
>>where all
>> >>>> published classifications are represented, but with
>>some sort of
>> >>>> combined voting or weighting by the recency of
>>publication, and
>> >>>> wiki-style comments and discussion, to show users
>>which
>> >>>> classifications are more currently approved and
>>used.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> hear, hear!
>> >>>
>> >>> IMHO, this is the only possible way to get usefully
>>stable global lists.
>> >>>
>> >>> It amounts to the realisation that the
>>classification business is
>> >>> producing opinions (however obnoxious this may sound
>>to the
>> >>> taxonomist).
>> >>>
>> >>> So databases should amass these opinions with plenty
>>factual detail
>> >>> but without implicitly endowing any
>>classification-opinion with the
>> >>> distinction of being "fact".
>> >>>
>> >>> It would seem this obvious way of doing taxonomical
>>databases is not
>> >>> too hard to implement but I have never seen it done
>>, or even
>> >>> acknowledged as necessary.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Erikjan Rijkers
>>
>> --
>> Dr D.McL. Roberts, Tel: +44 (0)20 7942 5086
>> ViBRANT Project Manager,
>> Dept. Life Sciences,
>> The Natural History Museum,
>> Cromwell Road,
>> London SW7 5BD
>> Great Britain Email: dmr at nomencurator dot
>>org
>> Web page: http://vbrant.eu
>> Web page: http://scratchpads.eu
>> Web page: http://www.editwebrevisions.info/
>> --
>> "You can't just ask customers what they want and then
>>try and give it to
>> them. By the time you get it built, they'll want
>>something new." [Steve
>> Jobs, quoted in The Guardian, Technology Section, 25
>>June 09].
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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-----------------------------------------------
Dr. Philipp Wagner
Current Institution:
Department of Biology
Villanova University
800 Lancaster Avenue
Villanova, Pennsylvania 19085, USA
Home Institution:
Zoologisches Forschungsmuseum Alexander Koenig
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