[Taxacom] Fwd: Is the Company "YourSpecies" in Barcelona for real or ahoax?

Thu Oct 24 07:11:33 CDT 2013

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ashley Nicholas <Nicholasa at ukzn.ac.za>
Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Is the Company "YourSpecies" in Barcelona for real
or ahoax?
To: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>

 Absolutely, human origins taxonomy is a highly politicized arena -- as you
have experienced yourself. While we on this what do you make of the Broken
Hill skull? I have heard people beginning to say it might be a Neanderthal
precursor? It also happens in smaller less significant arenas of plant
taxonomy where some taxonomists act god by supressing hypotheses. They have
become political and abandoned process demanded by true empirical science.
As you say it even permeates into other aspects of human thinking such as
scientific hypotheses being given religious status. ****

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*From:* John Grehan [mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com]
*Sent:* 23 October 2013 18:02

*To:* Ashley Nicholas
*Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] Is the Company "YourSpecies" in Barcelona for real
or ahoax?****

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If one ever wanted a classic example of a 'politicized' taxonomy one only
has to look at the human origins question.****

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Many scientists do look for certainty in science and are highly offended by
the idea that such certainty may be questioned. It gets worse when such
scientists look to science (especially evolutionary science) as a
substitute for religious faith (i.e. the science becomes the substitute
religion and so becomes an unquestionable authority for their existential
views).****

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John Grehan****

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On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Ashley Nicholas <Nicholasa at ukzn.ac.za>
wrote:****

 I agree. As they say in a divorce there is her story, his story and then
there is the truth. All knowledge is uncertain. In such an uncertain
universe. I think empirical science is the best tool we have to hand --
since we will never really know the truth. I don't deal with the truth as I
don't know what it is and I question that a empirical scientist is a
scientist if they think they do. I accept all hypotheses although some
appeal to my logical and rational faculties more. I never treat any of them
as the truth no matter how strong the evidence "seems" to be. Things are
not always what they seem to be. I enjoy living in such and uncertain
universe, although I can accept (but not like) that my species in general
likes the irrationality of certainty. That is why I don't like the
rejection of any empirical hypothesis (i.e. retestable hypotheses) by
journals. When journals reach that point of rejecting such hypotheses they
move from science into politics. Sadly this is what has happened to much of
taxonomy it is now in the arena of politics and not empirical science.
Which leads to all kinds of problems. ****

 ****

I enjoy your analogy to a court of law. In haste****

Ashley Nicholas****

 ****
 ------------------------------

*From:* John Grehan [calabar.john at gmail.com]
*Sent:* 23 October 2013 15:45
*To:* Ashley Nicholas****

*Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] Is the Company "YourSpecies" in Barcelona for real
or ahoax?****

** **

A species hypothesis is based on a set of rhetoric presented by a scientist
(lawyer, bush lawyer etc) that invokes various criteria (evidence) in
support of that argument. Testing is essentially how others (the jury)
perceive the effectiveness of the argument against subsequent experience -
either of the argument itself or the evidence provided. The judge is out to
lunch. ****

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John Grehan****

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On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 1:09 AM, Ashley Nicholas <Nicholasa at ukzn.ac.za>
wrote:****

I don't disagree with anything that has been said below. I require my
postgrad students and myself to support any new "species" description with
empirical evidence. See our publication of Pachycarpus acidostelma. I do
not advocate guessing as a means of establishing new species. The analyses
we give are based on all the specimens we cite with the protologue. These
specimens (exist in Popper's 1st world -- i.e. they are objects). Our
species hypotheses (which exist in Popper's 2nd world) can then be tested
by others that follow to be verified or falsified. Isn't this how empirical
science should work and our understanding of the biological world progress?
It is up to journals to demand empirical proof from systematists to support
their species hypotheses. This is why herbarium and museums collections are
so important to maintain and foster -- they are the only way we can test
previously published species hypotheses.

Regards
Ashley

________________________________________
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
on behalf of Michael A. Ivie [mivie at montana.edu]
Sent: 23 October 2013 00:55
To: Doug Yanega
Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Is the Company "YourSpecies" in Barcelona for real
or ahoax?

>(heck, you can
> describe a new species as "red with black spots", even if it's actually
> blue with white spots, and the name will still be accepted).

No, it will not be accepted, but it will be valid and available.

;-)

Mike

--
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA

(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu

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The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched with either of these
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(2) a Google search specified as:
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Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.****

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