[Taxacom] Biodiversity questions: Classifications

[Richard Jensen]

Do you mean that an extinct speciose clade cannot have the same rank as an
extant speciose clade?

Dick J


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 12:46 PM, <Frank.Krell at dmns.org> wrote:

> It only tells us about the successful biodiversity, not the failing part.
> If we do not ground our categories on age, then we cannot even discuss
> this aspect.
> Frank
>
>
> Dr. Frank-T. Krell
> Curator of Entomology
> Commissioner, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
> Chair, ICZN ZooBank Committee
> Department of Zoology
> Denver Museum of Nature & Science
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>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:
> taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Jensen
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 10:28 AM
> To: Chris Thompson
> Cc: TAXACOM
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Biodiversity questions: Classifications
>
> Could it be that the apparent discrepancy in biodiversity, as we perceive
> it, is that family Z has had just as many speciation events as family X,
> but has experienced extremely high rates of extinction?  If so, then
> knowing the age tells us nothing about biodiversity - the two clades, one
> with 999 surviving species, and one with 1 surviving species, could be the
> same age.
>
> Dick J
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Chris Thompson <xelaalex at cox.net> wrote:
>
> > PAUL:
> >
> > The scientific question that we begin with was about biodiversity.
> >
> > And Hennig said to answer those kinds of questions, then groups based
> > on time are the best.
> >
> > So, under the Hennig system, one could say that family X which now
> > contains
> > 999 species is more biodiversity, has more speciation, etc., than
> > family Z which now contains only 1 species. BECAUSE the contents
> > (species) of each family represents a clade that has evolved over the
> SAME time period.
> >
> > But as I indicated in my Diptera example, comparison of the number of
> > species in Limoniidae versus Inbiomyiidae does not tell you anything
> > about biodiversity, speciation, etc. because those groups are not
> > equivalent, not comparable, etc.
> >
> > Oh, well ...
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: muscapaul
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 10:27 AM
> > To: TAXACOM
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Biodiversity questions: Classifications
> >
> > Just out of interest: If actual age would (should?) be playing a role,
> > where do we then account for differences between taxa with highly
> > divergent generation time, like drosophilids with perhaps more than 10
> > generations per year under favourable conditions and panthophthalmids
> > which probably take multiple years to develop? And then I am just
> > considering taxa within the same order where one might give rise to
> > new taxa on a much shorter absolute time scale than the other.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On 3 October 2013 12:59, Chris Thompson <xelaalex at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > > So, for example, in Diptera, we now recognize a family which is a
> > > clade
> > of
> > > some 10 thousand species and of some 200 million years old
> > > (Limoniidae) and another family of less than a dozen species and
> > > probably less than 5 million years old (Inbiomyiidae).
> >
> > ...
> > >
> > > So, if one wants to derived scientific hypotheses from classifications,
> > > one
> > > must go back to clades and their age.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Chris
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> --
> Richard Jensen, Professor
> Department of Biology
> Saint Mary's College
> Notre Dame, IN 46556
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-- 
Richard Jensen, Professor
Department of Biology
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, IN 46556