[Taxacom] teleology example

[John Grehan]

I don't think it matters at all about how one comes to a belief. A belief
is a belief is a belief - its just a statement of what we think is true,
whether in science or in religion. I would go far as to say that what we
believe is not science as such, for all that a certain belief may be a
product of scientific investigation.

John Grehan

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Dick Jensen <rjensen at saintmarys.edu> wrote:

>
>
> Curtis,
>
>
>
> I think it depends on what one means by (i.e, how one defines) "belief".
> I believe that certain things will happen in the laboratory, and in nature,
> because there are sound scientific explanations for them.  This form of
> belief is not the same as what is generally accepted for religious belief;
> the idea that I accept, simply by faith with no empirical evidence, that
> something is true or can be explained.
>
>
>
> The same holds for "purpose".  Given John Grehan's position that
> definitions don't matter, it seems that another explanation is that Grehan
> and Winter are using two different definitions of purpose (at least one
> definition of purpose makes no reference to intent) .  If that's the nature
> of the problem, then there can be  no resolution until both provide a
> definition of what they mean  by "purpose".
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Dick J
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From: "Curtis Clark" <lists at curtisclark.org>
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 12:34:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] teleology example
>
> On 2013-03-11 3:30 AM, John Grehan wrote:
> > The real nature of the problem may be that there is this a
> > pervasive and explicit language of teleology in evolutionary biology
> > that is perfectly at home with theologically based approaches such as
> > intelligent design and creationism.
>
> I would go further and say that is is pervasive in English (and probably
> other natural languages as well), that we are biologically predisposed
> to seek teleological arguments, and that a different view of the world
> must be learned.
>
> > But in this case the teleological statement was so explicit and direct
> > that it was worthy of notice.
>
> And I contend that a single statement is not an accurate enough measure
> of the underlying state to be adequate for analysis (as contrasted to
> hand-waving). It seems that the best example is not one where an
> evolutionary biologist's thought processes *could* be explained by
> teleology, but rather one in which they cannot be explained any other way.
>
> > My personal view is that for many biologists, evolution has become a
> > substitute for traditional religious belief - which would explain a
> > lot of the hostility that arises in evolutionary biology when
> > certain fundamental 'truths' are challenged, and the sometimes deified
> > or saintified  state given to Darwin.
>
> I totally agree. I would never put a "Darwin fish" on my auto, because
> evolution isn't my religion. A relative told me that she "doesn't
> believe in science", and I responded that I don't, either: "belief"
> plays no useful role in science (beyond the belief that there is a
> consensus reality).
>
> --
> Curtis Clark        http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark
> Biological Sciences                   +1 909 869 4140
> Cal Poly Pomona, Pomona CA 91768
>
>
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