[Taxacom] teleology example
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Sun Mar 10 18:14:32 CDT 2013
This gets to the heart of the matter - that it is not just a matter of the
words themselves.
John Grehan
On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
> It's been suggested that the argument about teleology is only about words -
> it's just 'sloppy writing' etc. - but it's really about fundamental,
> underlying concepts. If it was just a casual mistake rather than a
> systematic approach, you wouldn't hear it on TV every night beamed out to
> billions by people like Attenborough, taught in high school biology classes
> (see the education literature), etc.
>
> You could ban the words 'purpose', 'in order to', 'for', 'to' etc. but
> people could still use teleological reasoning - explaining the process in
> terms of the end, rather than explaining the end in terms of the process -
> by using other words or languages. You would never catch Dawkins using the
> bad word 'purpose', but his work is thoroughly teleological.
>
> The whole subject is central to neodarwinism, but it is very confused. The
> Dawkins school accepts that teleology is bad and doesn't explain anything,
> while other leading neodarwinists, e.g. Ruse, argue that natural
> selection provides a mechanism for teleology (because mutation is
> completely random and any mutation at all is available in the gene pool at
> any time) and so teleology is OK...
>
> Michael Heads
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 9:58 AM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well Richard, I am glad you asked. In these politically correct times
> > sometimes sacrifices have to be made. There might be words (like
> > purpose) which are annoying or even injurious to some members because
> > of a perceived underlying meaning. In these cases, and in the interest
> > of the group, we should strive to write in teleologically-neutral
> > words. My suggestion of the filter is to automate the process as some
> > words could accidentally slip in, nothing more.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10 March 2013 21:42, Richard Zander <Richard.Zander at mobot.org> wrote:
> > > And what is your purpose in banning "purpose," Jason?
> > >
> > > There are, you know, immortal purposes that will cross state lines.
> > >
> > > R.
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > ____________________________
> > > Richard H. Zander
> > > Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA
> > > Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and
> > http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
> > > Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site:
> > http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm
> > > UPS and FedExpr - MBG, 4344 Shaw Blvd, St. Louis 63110 USA
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:
> > taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of JF Mate
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2013 3:54 AM
> > > To: Taxacom
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] teleology example
> > >
> > > Lets kill this thread by banning the word "purpose" from Taxacom. In
> > > fact lets enable a filter that will automatically reject emails
> > > containing said word.
> > >
> > > And to the other Kiwis in Taxacom. Do you guys also talk like HAL9000?
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Jason
> > >
> > > On 9 March 2013 09:57, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Knut Rognes, best known for his work on Diptera, just sent me an
> > >> unpublished manuscript on teleology, selection etc. This was written
> in
> > >> 1988 but is still one of the clearest accounts I've seen and
> well-worth
> > a
> > >> read. It's at:
> > >> http://home.online.no/~k-rognes/Teleologi1.pdf
> > >> Other Scandinavians who have contributed outstanding, critical
> accounts
> > of
> > >> neodarwinism include Soren Lovtrup, the vertebrate zoologist.
> > >>
> > >> Michael Heads
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Fred Schueler <bckcdb at istar.ca>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Quoting John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>:
> > >>>
> > >>> > Many evolutionists still use
> > >>> > explicitly teleological explanations while at the same time denying
> > that
> > >>> > their words say what that say. Is this not bizarre?
> > >>>
> > >>> * no, it's not bizarre. Descent with modification by natural
> selection
> > >>> is the only known mechanism for generating purpose (the ability to do
> > >>> things that tend to promote survival), so it's not much of a stretch
> > >>> to refer to the selective function of a structure as the purpose for
> > >>> its perpetuation. There's a bit more of a stretch to refer to a
> > >>> purpose for an origin, which involves developmental and evolutionary
> > >>> pathways, rather than individual development, but to the extent that
> > >>> there is such a thing as purpose, evolutionary origin is some kind of
> > >>> a summation of individual 'purposes.'
> > >>>
> > >>> fred (though admittedly, in the present case the use of 'purpose' did
> > >>> grate).
> > >>> =========================================================
> > >>>
> > >>> > On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Richard Zander
> > >>> > <Richard.Zander at mobot.org>wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> >> Clearly most of us think that the author did not write "purpose"
> on
> > >>> >> purpose.
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> But then, do even humans really have purpose? Or are we just
> neurons
> > >>> >> firing in concert following some higher pattern in the universe,
> > and we
> > >>> >> pretend we have free-will and . . . purpose? Perhaps we are all
> just
> > >>> >> organic machines, and what we think is purpose is just reflex
> > >>> >> machination? Or are we living in a big video game following the
> > higher
> > >>> >> purpose of a multidiminsional Xbox?
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> This thread is actually quite bizarre. Whether you think about it
> .
> > . .
> > >>> >> or not.
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> ____________________________
> > >>> >> Richard H. Zander
> > >>> >> Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299
> USA
> > >>> >> Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and
> > >>> >> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
> > >>> >> Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site:
> > >>> >> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm
> > >>> >> UPS and FedExpr - MBG, 4344 Shaw Blvd, St. Louis 63110 USA
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> >> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >>> >> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Curtis
> > Clark
> > >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 9:43 PM
> > >>> >> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >>> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] teleology example
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> On 2013-03-06 6:12 PM, John Grehan wrote:
> > >>> >> > Here's a nice explicit example: "it's hard to see how these
> > hair-like
> > >>> >> > processes would evolve if they didn't serve a purpose."
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> "Purpose" is often used as an unfortunate substitute for
> "function"
> > by
> > >>> >> biologists. Sloppy writing doesn't always mean sloppy thinking.
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> --
> > >>> >> Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark
> > >>> >> Biological Sciences +1 909 869 4140
> > >>> >> Cal Poly Pomona, Pomona CA 91768
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
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> University of California Press, Berkeley.
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