[Taxacom] teleology example

Sun Mar 10 16:26:53 CDT 2013

It's been suggested that the argument about teleology is only about words -
it's just 'sloppy writing' etc. - but it's really about fundamental,
underlying concepts. If it was just a casual mistake rather than a
systematic approach, you wouldn't hear it on TV every night beamed out to
billions by people like Attenborough, taught in high school biology classes
(see the education literature), etc.

You could ban the words 'purpose', 'in order to', 'for', 'to' etc. but
people could still use teleological reasoning - explaining the process in
terms of the end, rather than explaining the end in terms of the process -
by using other words or languages. You would never catch Dawkins using the
bad word 'purpose', but his work is thoroughly teleological.

The whole subject is central to neodarwinism, but it is very confused. The
Dawkins school accepts that teleology is bad and doesn't explain anything,
while other leading neodarwinists, e.g. Ruse, argue that natural
selection provides a mechanism for teleology (because mutation is
completely random and any mutation at all is available in the gene pool at
any time) and so teleology is OK...

Michael Heads

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 9:58 AM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well Richard, I am glad you asked. In these politically correct times
> sometimes sacrifices have to be made. There might be words (like
> purpose) which are annoying or even injurious to some members because
> of a perceived underlying meaning. In these cases, and in the interest
> of the group, we should strive to write in teleologically-neutral
> words. My suggestion of the filter is to automate the process as some
> words could accidentally slip in, nothing more.
>
> Best
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> On 10 March 2013 21:42, Richard Zander <Richard.Zander at mobot.org> wrote:
> > And what is your purpose in banning "purpose," Jason?
> >
> > There are, you know, immortal purposes that will cross state lines.
> >
> > R.
> >
> > ï»¿
> >
> > ____________________________
> > Richard H. Zander
> > Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA
> > Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and
> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
> > Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site:
> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm
> > UPS and FedExpr -  MBG, 4344 Shaw Blvd, St. Louis 63110 USA
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:
> taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of JF Mate
> > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2013 3:54 AM
> > To: Taxacom
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] teleology example
> >
> > Lets kill this thread by banning the word "purpose" from Taxacom. In
> > fact lets enable a filter that will automatically reject emails
> > containing said word.
> >
> > And to the other Kiwis in Taxacom. Do you guys also talk like HAL9000?
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > On 9 March 2013 09:57, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Knut Rognes, best known for his work on Diptera, just sent me an
> >> unpublished manuscript on teleology, selection etc. This was written in
> >> 1988 but is still one of the clearest accounts I've seen and well-worth
> a
> >> read. It's at:
> >> http://home.online.no/~k-rognes/Teleologi1.pdf
> >> Other Scandinavians who have contributed outstanding, critical accounts
> of
> >> neodarwinism include Soren Lovtrup, the vertebrate zoologist.
> >>
> >> Michael Heads
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Fred Schueler <bckcdb at istar.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Quoting John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>:
> >>>
> >>> >  Many evolutionists still use
> >>> > explicitly teleological explanations while at the same time denying
> that
> >>> > their words say what that say. Is this not bizarre?
> >>>
> >>> * no, it's not bizarre. Descent with modification by natural selection
> >>> is the only known mechanism for generating purpose (the ability to do
> >>> things that tend to promote survival), so it's not much of a stretch
> >>> to refer to the selective function of a structure as the purpose for
> >>> its perpetuation. There's a bit more of a stretch to refer to a
> >>> purpose for an origin, which involves developmental and evolutionary
> >>> pathways, rather than individual development, but to the extent that
> >>> there is such a thing as purpose, evolutionary origin is some kind of
> >>> a summation of individual 'purposes.'
> >>>
> >>> fred (though admittedly, in the present case the use of 'purpose' did
> >>> grate).
> >>> =========================================================
> >>>
> >>> > On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Richard Zander
> >>> > <Richard.Zander at mobot.org>wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Clearly most of us think that the author did not write "purpose" on
> >>> >> purpose.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> But then, do even humans really have purpose? Or are we just neurons
> >>> >> firing in concert following some higher pattern in the universe,
> and we
> >>> >> pretend we have free-will and . . . purpose? Perhaps we are all just
> >>> >> organic machines, and what we think is purpose is just reflex
> >>> >> machination? Or are we living in a big video game following the
> higher
> >>> >> purpose of a multidiminsional Xbox?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> This thread is actually quite bizarre. Whether you think about it .
> . .
> >>> >> or not.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> ____________________________
> >>> >> Richard H. Zander
> >>> >> Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA
> >>> >> Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and
> >>> >> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
> >>> >> Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site:
> >>> >> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm
> >>> >> UPS and FedExpr -  MBG, 4344 Shaw Blvd, St. Louis 63110 USA
> >>> >>
> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >>> >> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Curtis
> Clark
> >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 9:43 PM
> >>> >> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >>> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] teleology example
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On 2013-03-06 6:12 PM, John Grehan wrote:
> >>> >> > Here's a nice explicit example: "it's hard to see how these
> hair-like
> >>> >> > processes would evolve if they didn't serve a purpose."
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "Purpose" is often used as an unfortunate substitute for "function"
> by
> >>> >> biologists. Sloppy writing doesn't always mean sloppy thinking.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --
> >>> >> Curtis Clark        http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark
> >>> >> Biological Sciences                   +1 909 869 4140
> >>> >> Cal Poly Pomona, Pomona CA 91768
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
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> >> --
> >> Wellington, New Zealand.
> >>
> >> My new book: *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *
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-- 
Wellington, New Zealand.

My new book: *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *
University of California Press, Berkeley.