[Taxacom] Generic type of large genus belongs in different genus

Mon Apr 8 03:46:50 CDT 2013

I agree with Rod's key points here.  But this is nothing new.  The fact that
binomials and trinomials (and beyond) embed taxonomy within nomenclature has
been a reality for 250 years.  I think the problem we mostly have is that
different people mean different things when they refer to a taxon "name",
and they also mean different things when they refer to nomenclatural
"stability".  

There is a much deeper issue here, that I don't have time to leap into --
but basically it boils down to the question of "What, exactly, are we trying
to communicate when we assert classifications of organisms using
nomenclature?"  A naïve answer (naïve at several levels) is "monophyletic
relationships". But I bet it's also one of the most common answers.

Aloha,
Rich

> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Roderic Page
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 10:39 PM
> To: TAXACOM
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Generic type of large genus belongs in different
> genus
> 
> On 8 Apr 2013, at 09:00, Paul van Rijckevorsel wrote:
> 
> > Nomenclature and taxonomy are separate, and scientific names are the
> > result of applying nomenclature to a taxonomically defined situation.
> 
> I accept that nomenclature and taxonomy are, ideally, separate. My point
is
> that this is not, in fact, how it works.
> 
> If names change depending on taxonomic context, then names are not, in
> practice, divorced from taxonomy. They would be if names were invariant
> across different taxonomies (i.e., no matter what you thought of fruit fly
> phylogeny "Drosophila melanogaster" is always "Drosophila melanogaster").
> 
> I am not arguing that we replace names with other identifiers, simply that
> once minted the name doesn't change (unless it is a homonym and needs
> replacing).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> >
> > But anybody who does not want to use scientific names can create his
> > own reality and use his own (alphanumerical) identifiers, or use
> > something like LSID's. And who knows, this approach may win out
> > eventually, when everybody's brain has been augmented / replaced by
> > computers.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roderic Page" <r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk>
> > To: "TAXACOM" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:39 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Generic type of large genus belongs in
> > different genus
> >
> >
> >> It seems to me that this discussion makes a mockery of notion that
> >> nomenclature is separate from taxonomy. Once you have bionomial
> >> names, and insist on those names being "meaningful" (i.e., the genus
> >> name tells you something about relationships) then you have a recipe
for
> instability.
> >>
> >> The ICZN decision regarding Drosophila melanogaster was the right one
> >> in my opinion, but for the wrong reasons. Why does it matter if
> >> Drosophila melanogaster sits in a phylogeny next to some Sophophora
> >> species? What matters is its relationships, not what we call it.
> >>
> >> Names are a poor way to convey relationships, why burden them with
> >> this role? If you have no other way of conveying relationships then
> >> perhaps the trade off between stability and meaning seems worthwhile.
> >> But we do have powerful ways of visualising relationships, so it
> >> seems perverse to continue to change names (thus annoying people who
> >> use them) in the hope that names remain "meaningful". We don't expect
> >> the name of an organism to be meaningful ("maximus" might not be the
> biggest species, "africanus"
> >> might come from Australia), can we not let this last scrap of meaning
> >> go and save us (and the wider community) some grief?
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Rod
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >> Roderic Page
> >> Professor of Taxonomy
> >> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
> >> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr Building
> >> University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
> >>
> >> Email: r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk
> >> Tel: +44 141 330 4778
> >> Fax: +44 141 330 2792
> >> Skype: rdmpage
> >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
> >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage
> >> Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com
> >> Home page: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html
> >> Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderic_D._M._Page
> >> Citations:
> >> http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ
> >> ORCID id: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
> >>
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> >>
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> >> Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.
> >>
> >>
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> > Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.
> >
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Roderic Page
> Professor of Taxonomy
> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine College
of
> Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr Building University of
> Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
> 
> Email: r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk
> Tel: +44 141 330 4778
> Fax: +44 141 330 2792
> Skype: rdmpage
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage
> Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com
> Home page: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html
> Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderic_D._M._Page
> Citations:
> http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ
> ORCID id: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> 
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched with either of these
> methods:
> 
> (1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org
> 
> (2) a Google search specified as:
> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
> 
> Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.