[Taxacom] Woodpeckers, primates, as well as the Wallace Line gauntlet

[John Grehan]

It seems that Ken regards anything he imagines as somehow reflecting reality - and to imagine anything other than they are not in Madagascar because their ancestral range did not include what later became Madagascar (or that they were there but became extinct).

Perhaps Ken could even imagine something similar for why ghost moths (Hepialidae) are not in Madagascar, despite being from a group that is recognized as having a Mesozic origin because of the early fossil record of related groups.

John Grehan

-----Original Message-----
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Kenneth Kinman
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 12:41 AM
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Woodpeckers, primates,as well as the Wallace Line gauntlet

Hi Michael,
        Well first of all, my idea is that a lot of things could have kept woodpeckers out of Madagascar.  I still maintain that they are not great migrators compared to many passerines (or various other Orders) that most likely got there first, and that woodpeckers may therefore have not ever gotten there at all (much less tried to establish
themselves).   
        As for honeyguides, they apparently aren't migrators at all, and stay very close to home.  They also have a very recent fossil record (although that probably wouldn't impress you or John), and I wouldn't be surprised if Picidae is paraphyletic with respect to them, and that they
arose relatively late.   
        They are also specialized in that they are nest parasites, laying one egg at a time, and are rather particular in what species nests they lay those eggs.  I hardly think they would easily establish themselves on Madagascar, or even that any of them ever got to Madagascar at all.  I'd give woodpeckers better odds of doing that (and I obviously don't think much of those odds either).  I don't whether call the honeyguide on Madagascar hypothesis "ad hoc" or grasping at
straws.   And I also wouldn't be surprised if Coraciformes is
paraphyletic with respect to Piciformes, and that the latter resulted from dispersal and initial isolation, not vicariance.
       -------------- Goodnight,
                                   Ken   

-----------------------------------------------------------
Michael wrote:  
       I'm impressed with your idea that aye-ayes kept woodpeckers out of Madagascar by invading the 'prying for grubs' niche first! But don't forget it's all Piciformes that are absent from Madagascar, not just woodpeckers. Other members, such as honeyguides (Indicatoridae), have a very different ecology.   It would be nice to have a simple explanation for the Piciformes absence from Madagascar that also accounted for their absence from Australasia, and at the same time explained the high level endemism of their sister-group (Coraciiformes) in Madagascar and Australasia. If anyone knows of any previous discussion of vicariance between the two orders I'd be very interested to hear.       



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