[Taxacom] Hedges /Kumar (eds) The Timetree of Life

[Robin Leech]

Hi Dick,
Well, a possibility, but unless it was a very fleeting visit and 
die out, there is usually some evidence.  
To say "go extinct", in my view, suggests that the organism was 
there for some time, breeding and dispersing in the particular area.  
Simply getting to a particular area, and not surviving even one 
generation, hardly rates "extinction".  But it is semantics.
Robin
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dick Jensen 
  To: Robin Leech 
  Cc: John Grehan ; Taxacom 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 2:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Hedges /Kumar (eds) The Timetree of Life


  Robin,

  how about 

  3. It went extinct

  as a third reason?

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Robin Leech <releech at telus.net>
  To: John Grehan <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>, Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
  Sent: Wed, 18 May 2011 13:47:46 -0400 (EDT)
  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Hedges /Kumar (eds) The Timetree of Life

  A species is not found in a particular area for one of 2 reasons:
  1.  It cannot live there.
  2.  It hasn't gotten there yet.

  That puts Ken's comments dead centre.

  Robin
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "John Grehan" 
  To: "Taxacom" 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 11:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Hedges /Kumar (eds) The Timetree of Life


  That was my point exactly, and if one (tree construction whether cladistic 
  or otherwise) is 'analysis' so to is panbiogeography. And regardless as to 
  whether or not panbiogeography is 'not good practice' it works, and works 
  well (which then forces the retort that it was all dumb luck anyhow).

  John Grehan

  -----Original Message-----
  From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu 
  [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Zander
  Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 10:26 AM
  To: Jason Mate; Taxacom
  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Hedges /Kumar (eds) The Timetree of Life

  Wonderful (as in full of wonder) and informative exchange between Jason Mate 
  and John Grehan. Jason is correct that relegating non-pattern data to a 
  (panbiogeographic) pattern is not good practice. On the other hand, don't 
  phylogeneticists do the same, relegating such to a cladogram?

  Finding animals in clouds is pareidolia. We taxacommers are often 
  pareidolized.  :  )


  * * * * * * * * * * * *
  Richard H. Zander
  Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA�
  Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/�and 
  http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
  Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site: 
  http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm



  -----Original Message-----
  From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu 
  [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Jason Mate
  Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 6:06 PM
  To: Taxacom
  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Hedges /Kumar (eds) The Timetree of Life


  Dear John,


  You bring panbiogeography to the mix at your own risk. The risk being that 
  you will start subordinating the facts to the pattern. Now if I had two 
  sister clades, as in the rodent article, one in South America and one in 
  Africa, it could be vicariance or it could be dispersal. The key is timing. 
  We are all in agreement that fossils provide a minimal age but there is (or 
  should) also a reasonable maximal age (best estimated by the fossil record 
  of related groups). Of course with no bottom it becomes impossible (-ish) to 
  refute vicariance. And that is my point with Michael´s article.


  [snip]
  You are moving way beyond the topic here. But in any case tracks are not a 
  method of analysis. You are describing a pattern and then trying to impose 
  it on other patterns. Humans have this tendency to learn a pattern and then 
  look for it. Like finding animals in the clouds or in a piece of wood, just 
  because it looks like something it doesn´t mean it is the same thing.

  Good night

  Jason


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