[Taxacom] Antw:Re: Antw:Re: Evolution of human-ape relationships, remains open for investigation

Sat Aug 13 02:12:46 CDT 2011

I must confess to rehashing arguments that I made back in 1966 or so. But, like Oscar Wilde, I can resist anything but temptation.

Donald H. Colless
CSIRO Ecosystem Sciences
GPO Box 1700
Canberra 2601
don.colless at csiro.au
tuz li munz est miens envirun
________________________________________
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of P.H. HOVENKAMP [phovenkamp at casema.nl]
Sent: 13 August 2011 05:22
To: John Grehan; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Subject: [Taxacom] Antw:Re:  Antw:Re:  Evolution of human-ape relationships, remains open for investigation

Straight from the horse's mouth:
I expect a discussion to continue from where it was stopped, not to be repeated from the beginning for ever and ever and ever and ever.
In this discussion, the participants are repeating the arguments made between 1966 (significant date) and 1985 (approximately, date without any significance whatsoever), apparently without realizing it.

I don't know whether I can expect that John realizes that his arguments are incoherent - but others should realize that they have been made before.

Read the papers.

Best,

Peter Hovenkamp

Op 12/08/11, John Grehan  <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org> schreef:

> Bet all you like Pierre, but I want to hear from Peter directly.
>
> John Grehan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu](javascript:main.compose() On Behalf Of Pierre Deleporte
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 12:38 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Antw:Re: Evolution of human-ape relationships, remains open for investigation
>
>
> I bet Peter is suggesting that you read it before talking of cladistic
> analysis with outgroup rooting
> I further bet that Peter is expecting that this reading could help you
> to understand your own logical incoherence - like a priori selecting
> characters a clique-lique way, while performing standard parsimony
> analysis on the surviving data set, while acknowledging at the same time
> that the characters you assassinated would have survived for an analysis
> at a larger phylogenetic scale (see you last posts), all kinds of
> inconsistencies the Maddisons would certainly not recommend - see also
> your pet textbooks (if any, I have growing doubts about this...)
>
> Pierre
>
>
> Le 12/08/2011 18:20, John Grehan wrote:
> > So what is the point you want to make with respect to Maddison et al?
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: P.H. HOVENKAMP [mailto:phovenkamp at casema.nl](javascript:main.compose()
> > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 4:57 PM
> > To: John Grehan; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Subject: Antw:Re: [Taxacom] Evolution of human-ape relationships, remains open for investigation
> >
> > This is exactly the topic of the discussion in the 70ties/80ies I referred to earlier.
> >
> > If this post makes it to the list: scroll down in John's previous message to find a number of references to classic papers in which this topic is treated. To which may be added a paper by Maddison, Donoghue and Maddison from 1984 on outgroups and parsimony.
> >
> > Apparently, these are still relevant, and are to be considered required reading.
> >
> > Peter Hovenkamp
> >
> > Op 11/08/11, John Grehan<jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>  schreef:
> >
> >> "Binary transformation series, whether restricted in a way that one
> >> character state is present in the ingroup and absent in the outgroup or
> >> not, contribute the same number of steps to a parsimony analysis
> >> independently of the polarity assessment so identifying polarity in this
> >> characters prior to the analysis is irrelevant."
> >>
> >> But an algorithm cannot distinguish derived states if they are not
> >> specified. If one mixes in non-derived states and codes them as such,
> >> then no problem - but then why bother including them?
> >>
> >> John Grehan
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
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>
> --
> Pierre DELEPORTE
> UMR6552 EthoS
> Université Rennes 1
> CNRS
> Station Biologique
> 35380 PAIMPONT
> tél (+33) 02 99 61 81 63
> fax (+33) 02 99 61 81 88
>
>
>
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